Who Did Jesus say to Worship?

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Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
<vi31u5$32ps8$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
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Post by Robert
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye
shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what weworship: for salvation
is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall
worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such
toworship him.
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they thatworship him must worship himin spirit
and in truth.

You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the
Father, while skipping over those which indicate we should worship the Son:

- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary
his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their
treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh" (ESV).

- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly
you are the Son of God'" (ESV).

- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And
they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him" (ESV).

- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some
doubted" (ESV).

- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).

- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).

- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).

- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world,
he says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).

- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and
the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering
myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and
wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!' And I heard every
creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and
all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And
the four living creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation

Andrew

2024-11-26 14:54:50 UTC

Post by Christ Rose
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Post by Christ Rose
You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the Father, while skipping over those which indicate we should
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him"
(ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many
angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to
receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!' And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth
and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing
and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And the four living creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

Wow! Excellent Scriptures on worshipping Jesus!

Since Satan hates Jesus, he will move upon those
he controls to disparage the idea of worshipping
Jesus.

Now I understand ~why~ Robert doesn't want to
worship Jesus.

Hopefully he will repent of his rebellion against
our loving Creator, the living God.

Otherwise he will eventually share the destiny of
the first great rebel and his followers.

Revelation 20:10

Robert

2024-11-26 18:34:59 UTC

Post by Andrew

Post by Christ Rose
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_________________________________________________________

Post by Christ Rose
You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the Father,
while skipping over those which indicate we should
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and
myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you
are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And they
came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him"
(ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he
says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the
living creatures and the elders the voice of many
angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying
with a loud voice, 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to
receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and
blessing!' And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth
and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To
him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing
and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And the four living
creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

Wow! Excellent Scriptures on worshipping Jesus!
Since Satan hates Jesus, he will move upon those
he controls to disparage the idea of worshipping
Jesus.
Now I understand ~why~ Robert doesn't want to
worship Jesus.
Hopefully he will repent of his rebellion against
our loving Creator, the living God.
Otherwise he will eventually share the destiny of
the first great rebel and his followers.
Revelation 20:10

Those who love not their brother are not of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not
his brother.” (1Jn 3:10, KJV)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye
hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken
unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy
Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth,
give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye
have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye
loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my
Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass,
that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh,
and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father;
and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go
hence.” (Jhn 14:23-31, KJV)

“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he
that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he
hath not seen?” (1Jn 4:20, KJV)

Here you both can see, if you care to worship Jesus, that to do so means that
you follow His Commandments. Slandering others, and condemning them is not
done out of Love.

If you Worship Jesus then your first and sole desire is to honor him, his
teachings and the words of the Heavenly Father. You cannot pick ’n chose
what you want and exclude the rest so that your carnal hearts can rest in
ignorance. As Jesus says, you must Love God with ALL your heart and ALL your
soul.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mrk 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy Godwith all thy heart, and with
all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the
first commandment.

Yet here is an example of the likemindedness of both of you, as well as many
others, in the days of Yeshua’s time on earth.

Luk 10:25 (KJV) And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him,
saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 10:26 (KJV) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest
thou?

Luk 10:27 (KJV) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all
thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Luk 10:28 (KJV) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and
thou shalt live.

Luk 10:29 (KJV) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who
is my neighbour?

Are either one of you willing to follow the Lord completely? Thus worshipping
Him?

If so, then allow the LORD to rule over you in your life on this earth.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man.” (Luk 21:36, KJV)

--
All messages with alt.atheism in the headers are now filterd out beginning
10/19.So posting to aa will in effect filter all your messages from being
read by me. Thus you are KF'ing yourself. VBG

In the Name of Jesus

2024-11-26 19:32:31 UTC

Post by Robert

Post by Andrew

Post by Christ Rose
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Post by Christ Rose
You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the Father,
while skipping over those which indicate we should
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and
myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you
are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And they
came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him"
(ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he
says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the
living creatures and the elders the voice of many
angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying
with a loud voice, 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to
receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and
blessing!' And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth
and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To
him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing
and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And the four living
creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

Wow! Excellent Scriptures on worshipping Jesus!
Since Satan hates Jesus, he will move upon those
he controls to disparage the idea of worshipping
Jesus.
Now I understand ~why~ Robert doesn't want to
worship Jesus.
Hopefully he will repent of his rebellion against
our loving Creator, the living God.
Otherwise he will eventually share the destiny of
the first great rebel and his followers.
Revelation 20:10

Those who love not their brother are not of God.

The great diversionary. :-).

He doesn't know the Lord Jesus.

That is because he worships himself with his bible.

You'll all see in the end.

In the Name of Jesus

Post by Robert
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not
his brother.” (1Jn 3:10, KJV)
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye
hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken
unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy
Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth,
give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye
have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye
loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my
Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass,
that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh,
and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father;
and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go
hence.” (Jhn 14:23-31, KJV)
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he
that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he
hath not seen?” (1Jn 4:20, KJV)
Here you both can see, if you care to worship Jesus, that to do so means that
you follow His Commandments. Slandering others, and condemning them is not
done out of Love.
If you Worship Jesus then your first and sole desire is to honor him, his
teachings and the words of the Heavenly Father. You cannot pick ’n chose
what you want and exclude the rest so that your carnal hearts can rest in
ignorance. As Jesus says, you must Love God with ALL your heart and ALL your
soul.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mrk 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy Godwith all thy heart, and with
all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the
first commandment.
Yet here is an example of the likemindedness of both of you, as well as many
others, in the days of Yeshua’s time on earth.
Luk 10:25 (KJV) And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him,
saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 (KJV) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest
thou?
Luk 10:27 (KJV) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all
thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 (KJV) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and
thou shalt live.
Luk 10:29 (KJV) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who
is my neighbour?
Are either one of you willing to follow the Lord completely? Thus worshipping
Him?
If so, then allow the LORD to rule over you in your life on this earth.
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man.” (Luk 21:36, KJV)

--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord. John
10:30 I and Father are one. If you can't see that the Lord Jesus is the
everlasting Father you are not born again and can't see the Kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt
are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that
hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything, He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance (voice, the Person) of
God. When you find Him you have found the author."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul, and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do; it is what you are."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free, and free indeed with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

"The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence or proof is to be found."

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not so that a book could pass
through it for a sinner to play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven. Such
is the love of God."

"The definition of an atheist: a man full of bluster and bullshit in his
meaninglessness pretending he is the meaning of life."

"Free will is not power; it is the choice that I allow; that choice is
still according to my power," says the Lord.

"What does a fool do? A fool looks for a "nothing" in a "something" in
order to explain the existence of existence."

"Unless you do all because He is who He is, all your religion is in vain."

"Every man is subject to God; He judges every man, and He is reality.
What a gift in a fallen world!"

"Love MUST be a choice or it is nothing but a law!"

"Why were all men born sinners? So that God could reveal Himself, so
that we would behold the glory of God, and that we should bring forth
the glory of God"

"God does not and will not arbitrate for any man to love Him! If God
isn't everything to you, He is nothing to you where the rubber meets the
road."

"It is the unforgivable sin not to love God with all your heart, soul,
and mind. What do you have that is lasting? It is not so much being
punished; it is what you are left with."

"Love isn't worth anything without first a free will choice for God to
birth it in a man."

"The point of salvation: desperation. Anything less than that is
self-righteousness."

"A sinner is not a believer in God; a sinner is a believer in sin."

"A piece of dirt is not the promised land; that is only a reflection.
The promised land is knowing Me, says the Lord."

"It is all about God or it is all about idolatry."

"The Lord Jesus is coming soon. He has always come soon."

"There is no revolving door of self-worship in a son of God's life!"

"There is no such thing as random!"

"You can't truly love without it being with all your heart."

"No one can see God without their whole heart. Unless you can see God,
you know nothing."

"You can't learn God; God has to reveal Himself to you."

"No sinner is sinless in any way."

"Only God is life; only the Kingdom of God of His "Nature" is life."

"What you believe is just a leaning on your own understanding; faith is
a leaning on the one you have chosen to trust."

"God uses the "letter" to crucify a man and raise him from the dead."

"Not fearing God is sheer stupidity for sinners."

"Self-righteousness is any exclusion of God in your heart, because any
exclusion reveals that you think more about yourself than what you
really are."

"Atheism: "The claim that life received from itself."

"But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false prophet."

"That light had to bear (bears all things) the darkness for us, but that
light did not ever become darkness."

"You must reach beyond the bible that tells you about Him, and into your
daily life to find Him in Person. He's there."

"What is wrong with Christendom? False understanding based on compromise."

"It is not in man to love his enemies. And if he tries, he is walking in
a lie and trying to raise himself up to the level of God."

"God has to be quiet now; we have our bible. Well, then, who is going to
speak?"

"It is all about the Lord in His glory and whether a man loves Him with
all for who He is."

"A son of God became the bible when he was born again because the Holy
Spirit took up residence in his heart as Lord."

Christ Rose

2024-11-26 21:16:56 UTC

Post by Robert

Post by Andrew

Post by Christ Rose
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========================================

_________________________________________________________

Post by Christ Rose
You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the Father,
while skipping over those which indicate we should
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and
myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you
are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And they
came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him"
(ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he
says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the
living creatures and the elders the voice of many
angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying
with a loud voice, 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to
receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and
blessing!' And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth
and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To
him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing
and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And the four living
creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

Wow! Excellent Scriptures on worshipping Jesus!
Since Satan hates Jesus, he will move upon those
he controls to disparage the idea of worshipping
Jesus.
Now I understand ~why~ Robert doesn't want to
worship Jesus.
Hopefully he will repent of his rebellion against
our loving Creator, the living God.
Otherwise he will eventually share the destiny of
the first great rebel and his followers.
Revelation 20:10

Those who love not their brother are not of God.
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not
his brother.” (1Jn 3:10, KJV)
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye
hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken
unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy
Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth,
give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye
have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye
loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my
Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass,
that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh,
and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father;
and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go
hence.” (Jhn 14:23-31, KJV)
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he
that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he
hath not seen?” (1Jn 4:20, KJV)
Here you both can see, if you care to worship Jesus, that to do so means that
you follow His Commandments. Slandering others, and condemning them is not
done out of Love.
If you Worship Jesus then your first and sole desire is to honor him, his
teachings and the words of the Heavenly Father. You cannot pick ’n chose
what you want and exclude the rest so that your carnal hearts can rest in
ignorance. As Jesus says, you must Love God with ALL your heart and ALL your
soul.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mrk 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy Godwith all thy heart, and with
all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the
first commandment.
Yet here is an example of the likemindedness of both of you, as well as many
others, in the days of Yeshua’s time on earth.
Luk 10:25 (KJV) And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him,
saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 (KJV) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest
thou?
Luk 10:27 (KJV) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all
thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 (KJV) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and
thou shalt live.
Luk 10:29 (KJV) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who
is my neighbour?
Are either one of you willing to follow the Lord completely? Thus worshipping
Him?
If so, then allow the LORD to rule over you in your life on this earth.
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man.” (Luk 21:36, KJV)

Robert's argument here is to the effect that you worship Jesus by doing
what He says, and that we don't, because (in Roberts JUDGMENT) we don't
love our brother. This is the same hypocritical response Robert gives in
every case:

• He devotes his life trying to undermine and poison people's minds
against nearly everything you say, even when you're giving an accurate
presentation of the gospel.

• Then if you rebuke him for it, he throws himself on the ground, plays
the victim, and accuses you of failing to show love.

Meanwhile, love rejoices in the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6), and chastens
and rebukes those who are in error (Revelation 3:19).
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation

In the Name of Jesus

2024-11-26 21:23:17 UTC

Post by Christ Rose
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the
death penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1

John > 2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of

Post by Christ Rose
your sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the

name > of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:13, ESV)

Post by Christ Rose
https://christrose.news/salvation

Your little religious jargon roll has not saved you from your
sinning——continually exchanging the truth for a lie!

That...is...because...making...sinner...claims...about...theology...
does...not...save.

"The veil of the temple was not rent in twain so that a bible could pass
as God."

Repent of ALL you are or you will end up with Robert, never ever coming
to know the Lord.

In the Name of Jesus
--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord. John
10:30 I and Father are one. If you can't see that the Lord Jesus is the
everlasting Father you are not born again and can't see the Kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt
are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that
hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything, He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance (voice, the Person) of
God. When you find Him you have found the author."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul, and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do; it is what you are."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free, and free indeed with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

"The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence or proof is to be found."

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not so that a book could pass
through it for a sinner to play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven. Such
is the love of God."

"The definition of an atheist: a man full of bluster and bullshit in his
meaninglessness pretending he is the meaning of life."

"Free will is not power; it is the choice that I allow; that choice is
still according to my power," says the Lord.

"What does a fool do? A fool looks for a "nothing" in a "something" in
order to explain the existence of existence."

"Unless you do all because He is who He is, all your religion is in vain."

"Every man is subject to God; He judges every man, and He is reality.
What a gift in a fallen world!"

"Love MUST be a choice or it is nothing but a law!"

"Why were all men born sinners? So that God could reveal Himself, so
that we would behold the glory of God, and that we should bring forth
the glory of God"

"God does not and will not arbitrate for any man to love Him! If God
isn't everything to you, He is nothing to you where the rubber meets the
road."

"It is the unforgivable sin not to love God with all your heart, soul,
and mind. What do you have that is lasting? It is not so much being
punished; it is what you are left with."

"Love isn't worth anything without first a free will choice for God to
birth it in a man."

"The point of salvation: desperation. Anything less than that is
self-righteousness."

"A sinner is not a believer in God; a sinner is a believer in sin."

"A piece of dirt is not the promised land; that is only a reflection.
The promised land is knowing Me, says the Lord."

"It is all about God or it is all about idolatry."

"The Lord Jesus is coming soon. He has always come soon."

"There is no revolving door of self-worship in a son of God's life!"

"There is no such thing as random!"

"You can't truly love without it being with all your heart."

"No one can see God without their whole heart. Unless you can see God,
you know nothing."

"You can't learn God; God has to reveal Himself to you."

"No sinner is sinless in any way."

"Only God is life; only the Kingdom of God of His "Nature" is life."

"What you believe is just a leaning on your own understanding; faith is
a leaning on the one you have chosen to trust."

"God uses the "letter" to crucify a man and raise him from the dead."

"Not fearing God is sheer stupidity for sinners."

"Self-righteousness is any exclusion of God in your heart, because any
exclusion reveals that you think more about yourself than what you
really are."

"Atheism: "The claim that life received from itself."

"But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false prophet."

"That light had to bear (bears all things) the darkness for us, but that
light did not ever become darkness."

"You must reach beyond the bible that tells you about Him, and into your
daily life to find Him in Person. He's there."

"What is wrong with Christendom? False understanding based on compromise."

"It is not in man to love his enemies. And if he tries, he is walking in
a lie and trying to raise himself up to the level of God."

"God has to be quiet now; we have our bible. Well, then, who is going to
speak?"

"It is all about the Lord in His glory and whether a man loves Him with
all for who He is."

"A son of God became the bible when he was born again because the Holy
Spirit took up residence in his heart as Lord."

"The veil of the temple was not rent in twain so that a bible could pass
as God."

Rod E.

2024-11-27 02:23:08 UTC

Post by Robert
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him.

My favorite verse. Thank you Robert.

Robert

2024-11-27 02:49:14 UTC

Post by Rod E.

Post by Robert
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him.

My favorite verse. Thank you Robert.

One of mine as well, it is a promise of the Lord as well.

I keep learning as my understanding grows.

--
All messages with alt.atheism in the headers are now filterd out beginning
10/19.So posting to aa will in effect filter all your messages from being
read by me. Thus you are KF'ing yourself. VBG

Christ Rose

2024-11-27 14:04:35 UTC

========================================
Tue, 26 Nov 2024 18:49:14 -0800
<vi61ba$3nfr2$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================

Post by Robert
I keep learning as my understanding grows.

========================================
On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 22:45:44 -0700
<vc5sa8$20nuk$***@dont-email.me>
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172650560200
Stupefaction Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
People that are already Born Again
Believers do not require faith to believe IN Jesus
Christ...
========================================

To "clarify", Robert added:
========================================
On Mon, 23 Sep 2024 10:56:20 -0700
<vcsa44$2q5q9$***@dont-email.me>
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172719006300
Stupefaction Robert <***@no.waywrote:
========================================
As I said, many times and in a variety
of ways, all of which is based on scripture.
They already have faith. And you are to
smart to understand that.
========================================

Believe: to "have faith" from "pistis":
"faith" (Strong).

Stupefaction Robert: Believers don't
require the faith they "already have" in
Christ, to believe IN Christ...

And note, he says I'm "to [too] smart to
understand that"!

So I would have to be dumber to
understand and confuse his claims with
the truth?

This is the guy telling everyone else
they lack understanding and
comprehension, every time they fail to
agree with his nonsense and idiocy.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation

Rod E.

2024-11-27 15:49:23 UTC

Post by Robert

Post by Rod E.

Post by Robert
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him.

My favorite verse. Thank you Robert.

One of mine as well, it is a promise of the Lord as well.
I keep learning as my understanding grows.

Many of us do. it comes with experience with the Holy Spirit.

In the Name of Jesus

2024-11-26 19:29:21 UTC

"Christ Rose" wrote in message news:1e6e0633-c5be-4e46-

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
========================================

_________________________________________________________

Post by Christ Rose
You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with
Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening
their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and
myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly
you are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And
they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the
world, he says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne
and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels,
numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a
loud voice, 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and
wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!' And I
heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in
the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the
throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
forever and ever!' And the four living creatures said, 'Amen!' and the
elders fell down and worshiped" (ESV).

The...reason...Robert...doesn't...worship...the...Lord...Jesus...
is...because...he...doesn't...know...Him.

And that has always been the case!

Theology...does...not...save.

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not so that a book could pass
through it for a sinner to play God."

Or...the veil of the temple was not rent in twain so that a book could
pass as God.

Sheesh!

In the Name of Jesus

Hopefully he will repent of his rebellion against
our loving Creator, the living God.
Otherwise he will eventually share the destiny of
the first great rebel and his followers.
Revelation 20:10

z***@windstream.net

2024-11-27 16:40:44 UTC

On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary
his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their
treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh" (ESV).

Look at Strong's definition of the word here translated as worship.
That word is "proskuneo".

"Strong's Ref. # 4352

Romanized proskuneo
Pronounced pros-koo-neh'-o

from GSN4314 and a probable derivative of GSN2965 (meaning to kiss,
like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e.
(literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence
to, adore):"

Notice these translations:

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and going into the house they saw the child with his
mother Mary, and falling to their knees they did him homage. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts of gold and
frankincense and myrrh.

-- New American with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary
his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they
opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense,
and myrrh.

- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their
treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and
myrrh.

-- Young's Bible
Matthew 2:11 and having come to the house, they found the child with
Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having
opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh,

-- Darby's Bible
Matthew 2:11 And having come into the house they saw the little child
with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having
opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Matthew 2:11 So they entered the house; and when they saw the babe
with His mother Mary, they prostrated themselves and did Him homage,
and opening their treasure-chests offered gifts to Him - gold,
frankincense, and myrrh.

(Matthew 2:11) And when they went into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to
him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with
giftsgold and frankincense and myrrh. (NWT)

BUT APPARENTLY IT CAN ALSO MEAN WORSHIP. Thus, your Bible and many
others are correct also.

So this doesn't settle the question of worship to Jesus.

Sincerely James.
Woman and God.
Bible discussion on it at
JW.org 11/25/2024

Post by Christ Rose
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly
you are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And
they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some
doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).

That is an exclamation! Like "Holy Cow", or "Oh my God", etc. Thomas
could have said the common expression "Oh my God", which you would
have jumped on to prove your point.

Post by Christ Rose
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world,
he says, 'Let all Gods angels worship him'" (ESV).

A definition of obeisance is:

"People also ask
What does obeisance mean in the Bible?
obedience
Obeisance (= obedience) originally signified the vow of obedience made
by a vassal to his lord or a slave to his master, but in time denoted
the act of bowing as a token of respect."
(https://www.google.com/search?q=define+obeisance&sa=Google+Search)

Post by Christ Rose
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and
the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering
myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and
wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!' And I heard every
creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and
all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And
the four living creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Christ Rose

2024-11-27 17:26:56 UTC

========================================
Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:40:44 -0500
<***@4ax.com>
"Sincerely" Wrong James <***@windstream.net> wrote:
========================================

Post by z***@windstream.net
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

Look at Strong's definition of the word here translated as worship.
That word is "proskuneo".

No, you're not going to use a double-standard to twist this word out of
existence when applied to Jesus. The various contexts in which this is
applied to Jesus show He rightly receives the same worship as God:

Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus should not be worshiped in the same
way as Jehovah (the Father). They emphasize that the Greek word
proskuneo—often translated as "worship" in English Bibles—does not
always mean religious worship. Instead, they claim it can simply refer
to showing honor or obeisance to someone of authority, such as a king or
dignitary.

Jehovah's Witnesses and Proskuneo

1. Selective Translation: In their New World Translation (NWT), they
translate proskuneo as "worship" when referring to Jehovah but as
"obeisance" when it applies to Jesus (e.g., Matthew 2:11, Hebrews 1:6).

2. Argument for Context: They claim that proskuneo only signifies divine
worship when directed at God, while in other contexts, it merely
expresses deep respect for a person.

Biblical Examples of Worship of Jesus

The Bible provides clear examples where proskuneo involves divine
worship directed toward Jesus:

- Matthew 2:11: The magi "fell down and worshiped" Jesus as a child.
This act was not mere respect but an acknowledgment of His divine kingship.

- Matthew 28:9, 17: After His resurrection, the disciples worshiped
Jesus. Their worship in the context of His glorified state underscores
His deity.

- Hebrews 1:6: The Father commands all angels to worship the Son. This
worship surpasses mere homage and affirms Christ's divine status.

- Revelation 5:11-14: Both angels and elders worship Jesus alongside the
Father, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be
blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" This scene
portrays coequal worship of the Father and the Son.

The Biblical Answer

1. Jesus Receives Worship Without Rebuke: In instances where humans or
angels are improperly worshiped (Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8-9), they
immediately redirect the worship to God. However, Jesus never rebukes
worship directed toward Him, affirming His worthiness (John 9:38,
Matthew 14:33).

2. Equality with the Father: Jesus declares, "That all may honor the
Son, just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). To honor the Son
equally with the Father involves worship, as worship is the highest form
of honor.

3. Jesus’ Divine Nature: Philippians 2:9-11 states that every knee will
bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, fulfilling
Isaiah 45:23, which refers to Jehovah. This reveals that Jesus shares in
the divine glory and worship due to God alone.

4. Contextual Integrity of Proskuneo: While proskuneo can indeed mean
reverence in non-divine contexts, its use for Jesus in divine settings,
particularly in Revelation and the Gospels, demonstrates that He is
worshiped as God.

Conclusion

Jehovah’s Witnesses misrepresent the biblical teaching on proskuneo by
inconsistently translating it and ignoring contexts where Jesus is
worshiped in divine settings. The biblical response affirms that Jesus,
as God the Son, rightly receives worship, demonstrating His equality
with the Father and the Spirit in the Godhead.

Post by z***@windstream.net
"Strong's Ref. # 4352
Romanized proskuneo
Pronounced pros-koo-neh'-o
from GSN4314 and a probable derivative of GSN2965 (meaning to kiss,
like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e.
(literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence
to, adore):"
-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and going into the house they saw the child with his
mother Mary, and falling to their knees they did him homage. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts of gold and
frankincense and myrrh.
-- New American with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary
his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they
opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense,
and myrrh.
- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their
treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and
myrrh.
-- Young's Bible
Matthew 2:11 and having come to the house, they found the child with
Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having
opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh,
-- Darby's Bible
Matthew 2:11 And having come into the house they saw the little child
with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having
opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh.
-- Weymouth's New Testament
Matthew 2:11 So they entered the house; and when they saw the babe
with His mother Mary, they prostrated themselves and did Him homage,
and opening their treasure-chests offered gifts to Him - gold,
frankincense, and myrrh.
(Matthew 2:11) And when they went into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to
him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with
gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh. (NWT)

Idem.

Post by z***@windstream.net
BUT APPARENTLY IT CAN ALSO MEAN WORSHIP. Thus, your Bible and many
others are correct also.

Correct. At least you were honest enough to admit that.

Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings on the worship of Jesus have undergone
significant changes over time. Initially, their publications endorsed
the worship of Jesus, but later, they shifted to the stance that only
Jehovah should be worshiped.

Early Endorsement of Jesus' Worship

In the early 20th century, the Watch Tower Society publications affirmed
the worship of Jesus. For instance, the 1898 issue of The Watchtower

Post by z***@windstream.net
"Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped,

and properly so" (The Watchtower, 15 July 1898, p. 216).

This indicates that early Jehovah's Witnesses accepted the worship of
Jesus as appropriate.

Transition Period

By the mid-20th century, the organization's perspective began to change.
In 1954, The Watchtower addressed the translation of the Greek word
proskuneo, which is often rendered as "worship" in English Bibles. They
argued that proskuneo can mean "obeisance" or deep respect, not
necessarily worship, especially when directed toward Jesus (The
Watchtower, 1 January 1954, p. 31). This distinction marked a shift in
their doctrinal stance.

Biblical Evidence for the Worship of Jesus

The Bible clearly presents examples of Jesus receiving worship in
contexts of divine reverence:

1. The magi worshiped Jesus as a child, falling down before Him: "And
going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they
fell down and worshiped him" (Matthew 2:11, ESV).

2. After Jesus walked on water, His disciples worshiped Him: "And those
in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God'"
(Matthew 14:33, ESV).

3. Following His resurrection, His disciples worshiped Him again: "And
when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (Matthew 28:17,
ESV).

4. The Father commands all angels to worship Jesus: "Let all God’s
angels worship him" (Hebrews 1:6, ESV).

5. In the heavenly vision, all creatures worship the Lamb alongside the
Father: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits
on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
forever and ever!'" (Revelation 5:13, ESV).

Current Position

Today, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that worship is due exclusively to
Jehovah God. They assert that while Jesus is honored as God's Son, He is
not to be worshiped. This position is reflected in their translation
choices, where proskuneo directed toward Jesus is rendered as
"obeisance" rather than "worship" (The Watchtower, 15 November 1970, p.
702).

Conclusion

The doctrinal evolution of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the worship of
Jesus highlights a significant shift from early acceptance to the
current exclusive devotion to Jehovah. This change underscores the
dynamic nature of their theological interpretations over time.

Sources

- "Interesting Queries." The Watchtower, 15 July 1898, p. 216.
- "Questions From Readers." The Watchtower, 1 January 1954, p. 31.
- "Obeisance or Worship?" The Watchtower, 15 November 1970, p. 702.

Post by z***@windstream.net
So this doesn't settle the question of worship to Jesus.

It only doesn't settle it if you're determined to deny the deity of
Christ, which Watchtower is. As shown above, they have progressively
sought to deny and change the wording of the Bible to accommodate their
determined denial of Christ's deity.

That is an exclamation! Like "Holy Cow", or "Oh my God", etc. Thomas
could have said the common expression "Oh my God", which you would
have jumped on to prove your point.

You skip over multiple instances where the context clearly shows Jesus
is being worshiped, and focus on one instance as an "overriding"
contradiction. This makes sense only if you're determined to deny the
deity of Christ. You're now postulating hypothetical interpretations in
an effort to deny Christ's deity.

"People also ask
What does obeisance mean in the Bible?
obedience
Obeisance (= obedience) originally signified the vow of obedience made
by a vassal to his lord or a slave to his master, but in time denoted
the act of bowing as a token of respect."
(https://www.google.com/search?q=define+obeisance&sa=Google+Search)

The problem is, Watchtower acknowledges the word "proskuneo" as meaning
worship if applied to God the Father, but then claims it cannot mean
worship if applied to the Son. They have progressively adopted a more
and more hypocritical false "translation" to enforce their own desire to
deny Christ's deity in their NWT abomination.

--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation

Robert

2024-11-27 17:34:12 UTC

Post by z***@windstream.net
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the

The point made was who did Jesus say, or command, to worship. It is really
that simple.
Did I ignore any verses that speak about worshipping Jesus while he was here?
Nope. I looked long and hard about it. When Jesus returns to this earth to
rule all nations, he will be worshipped by men, as the ruler of this world.
With consequences upon those who do not, and blessings for those that do.

When he was here from birth, he was paid homage at birth, but men did not
prostrate themselves before him as a normal occurrence in daily life. Why was
that so?

He was the promised one, the Anointed One. The Messiah. A fulfillment of
prophesy, and those that sought for him throughout time after he was
prophesied, did him honor as befitting the prophesies. Yet His Mom did not do
so, nor did his family. The believers in heaven will pay him proper homage
for the work he did for us. Yet He is not his Father, and he would never seek
to usurp the Heavenly Fathers place, which Lucifer sought to do.

Look at Strong's definition of the word here translated as worship.
That word is "proskuneo".
"Strong's Ref. # 4352
Romanized proskuneo
Pronounced pros-koo-neh'-o
from GSN4314 and a probable derivative of GSN2965 (meaning to kiss,
like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e.
(literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence
to, adore):"
-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and going into the house they saw the child with his
mother Mary, and falling to their knees they did him homage. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts of gold and
frankincense and myrrh.
-- New American with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary
his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they
opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense,
and myrrh.
- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their
treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and
myrrh.
-- Young's Bible
Matthew 2:11 and having come to the house, they found the child with
Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having
opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh,
-- Darby's Bible
Matthew 2:11 And having come into the house they saw the little child
with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having
opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh.
-- Weymouth's New Testament
Matthew 2:11 So they entered the house; and when they saw the babe
with His mother Mary, they prostrated themselves and did Him homage,
and opening their treasure-chests offered gifts to Him - gold,
frankincense, and myrrh.
(Matthew 2:11) And when they went into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to
him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with
gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh. (NWT)
BUT APPARENTLY IT CAN ALSO MEAN WORSHIP. Thus, your Bible and many
others are correct also.

The Kings of England, as well as other rulers in the land of note were
addresses as “Your Worship” as well. Kissing the hand or ring or
authority is also called worship, as in those of the RCC honor their Pope as
their leader. Something that no one did for Apostles.

Post by z***@windstream.net
So this doesn't settle the question of worship to Jesus.

We are called to honor, or worship him with out lives, in this world. If one
dishonors him, especially as a full part of the Godhead, he will dishonor
those people before the Heavenly Father.

Post by z***@windstream.net
Sincerely James.

That is an exclamation! Like "Holy Cow", or "Oh my God", etc. Thomas
could have said the common expression "Oh my God", which you would
have jumped on to prove your point.

Why would he? Jesus had at various times as God to show the disciples the
former Glory of Jesus, that he set aside in order to be a man. When he was
raised from the dead, there was no mistaking that by those in the know. Yet
there is no reference of them treating him any different after his
resurrection then before. Although I cannot see how they would not have
individually recognized who he really was at that point, and without any
doubt. Although Thomas acted as if he was from Missouri.

He did not command them to do so, and their paying Homage to Jesus for all
that he did in this life, and in creation of this world, none of it detracted
from the Homage we are commanded, by Jesus, to give to the Heavenly Father.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man.” (Luk 21:36, KJV)

--
All messages with alt.atheism in the headers are now filterd out beginning
10/19.So posting to aa will in effect filter all your messages from being
read by me. Thus you are KF'ing yourself. VBG

z***@windstream.net

2024-11-28 15:09:33 UTC

On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the

Hold on to your hats! You need to bring out that the Greek word that
"worship" is translated from is from Strong's "proskuneo" and can mean
"worship" or "homage", and similar words. Notice:

"Proskuneo is a Greek word that means "to worship" and is most
commonly used in the New Testament. It can also mean "to kiss", as in
kissing the hand of a superior. In ancient Greek culture, it was used
to describe showing reverence and devotion to God."
(https://www.google.com/search?q=proskuneo&sa=Google+Search)

Thus the NWT is also correct in translating it to be "obeisance",
which supports the Scriptures that says that Jesus was CREATED by God,
thus not to be worshipped:

-- King James
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn
of every creature:

And notice this truism:

-- King James
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans
write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the
beginning of the creation of God;

Yes, Jesus was the very first act of creation by God. And is His
firstborn Son. That is why he is so special to God and all of us.

Sincerely James.
Woman and God.
Bible discussion on it at
JW.org 11/28/2024

Post by Christ Rose
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary
his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their
treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly
you are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And
they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some
doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world,
he says, 'Let all Gods angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and
the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering
myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and
wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!' And I heard every
creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and
all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And
the four living creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Christ Rose

2024-11-28 16:48:35 UTC

========================================
Thu, 28 Nov 2024 10:09:33 -0500
<***@4ax.com>
"Sincerely" Wrong James <***@windstream.net> wrote:
========================================

Post by z***@windstream.net
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the

Hold on to your hats! You need to bring out that the Greek word that
"worship" is translated from is from Strong's "proskuneo" and can mean

Did you not read yesterday's posts? (see
<20214d35-ebc9-4743-b894-***@christrose.news>):

========================================
Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:26:56 -0600
<20214d35-ebc9-4743-b894-***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@christrose.news> wrote:
========================================

Post by z***@windstream.net
========================================
Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:40:44 -0500
========================================

Post by Christ Rose
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Robert
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

Look at Strong's definition of the word here translated as worship.
That word is "proskuneo".

No, you're not going to use a double-standard to twist this word out of
existence when applied to Jesus. The various contexts in which this is
Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus should not be worshiped in the same
way as Jehovah (the Father). They emphasize that the Greek word
proskuneo—often translated as "worship" in English Bibles—does not
always mean religious worship. Instead, they claim it can simply refer
to showing honor or obeisance to someone of authority, such as a king or
dignitary.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Proskuneo
1. Selective Translation: In their New World Translation (NWT), they
translate proskuneo as "worship" when referring to Jehovah but as
"obeisance" when it applies to Jesus (e.g., Matthew 2:11, Hebrews 1:6).
2. Argument for Context: They claim that proskuneo only signifies divine
worship when directed at God, while in other contexts, it merely
expresses deep respect for a person.
Biblical Examples of Worship of Jesus
The Bible provides clear examples where proskuneo involves divine
- Matthew 2:11: The magi "fell down and worshiped" Jesus as a child.
This act was not mere respect but an acknowledgment of His divine kingship.
- Matthew 28:9, 17: After His resurrection, the disciples worshiped
Jesus. Their worship in the context of His glorified state underscores
His deity.
- Hebrews 1:6: The Father commands all angels to worship the Son. This
worship surpasses mere homage and affirms Christ's divine status.
- Revelation 5:11-14: Both angels and elders worship Jesus alongside the
Father, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be
blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" This scene
portrays coequal worship of the Father and the Son.
The Biblical Answer
1. Jesus Receives Worship Without Rebuke: In instances where humans or
angels are improperly worshiped (Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8-9), they
immediately redirect the worship to God. However, Jesus never rebukes
worship directed toward Him, affirming His worthiness (John 9:38,
Matthew 14:33).
2. Equality with the Father: Jesus declares, "That all may honor the
Son, just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). To honor the Son
equally with the Father involves worship, as worship is the highest form
of honor.
3. Jesus’ Divine Nature: Philippians 2:9-11 states that every knee will
bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, fulfilling
Isaiah 45:23, which refers to Jehovah. This reveals that Jesus shares in
the divine glory and worship due to God alone.
4. Contextual Integrity of Proskuneo: While proskuneo can indeed mean
reverence in non-divine contexts, its use for Jesus in divine settings,
particularly in Revelation and the Gospels, demonstrates that He is
worshiped as God.
Conclusion
Jehovah’s Witnesses misrepresent the biblical teaching on proskuneo by
inconsistently translating it and ignoring contexts where Jesus is
worshiped in divine settings. The biblical response affirms that Jesus,
as God the Son, rightly receives worship, demonstrating His equality
with the Father and the Spirit in the Godhead.

Post by Robert
"Strong's Ref. # 4352
Romanized proskuneo
Pronounced pros-koo-neh'-o
from GSN4314 and a probable derivative of GSN2965 (meaning to kiss,
like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e.
(literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence
to, adore):"
-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and going into the house they saw the child with his
mother Mary, and falling to their knees they did him homage. Then,
opening their treasures, they offered him gifts of gold and
frankincense and myrrh.
-- New American with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary
his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they
opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense,
and myrrh.
- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Matthew 2:11 On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his
mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their
treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and
myrrh.
-- Young's Bible
Matthew 2:11 and having come to the house, they found the child with
Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having
opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh,
-- Darby's Bible
Matthew 2:11 And having come into the house they saw the little child
with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having
opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh.
-- Weymouth's New Testament
Matthew 2:11 So they entered the house; and when they saw the babe
with His mother Mary, they prostrated themselves and did Him homage,
and opening their treasure-chests offered gifts to Him - gold,
frankincense, and myrrh.
(Matthew 2:11) And when they went into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to
him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with
gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh. (NWT)

Idem.

Post by Robert
BUT APPARENTLY IT CAN ALSO MEAN WORSHIP. Thus, your Bible and many
others are correct also.

Correct. At least you were honest enough to admit that.
Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings on the worship of Jesus have undergone
significant changes over time. Initially, their publications endorsed
the worship of Jesus, but later, they shifted to the stance that only
Jehovah should be worshiped.
Early Endorsement of Jesus' Worship
In the early 20th century, the Watch Tower Society publications affirmed
the worship of Jesus. For instance, the 1898 issue of The Watchtower

Post by Christ Rose
"Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worship

ed,

Post by Christ Rose
and properly so" (The Watchtower, 15 July 1898, p. 216).

This indicates that early Jehovah's Witnesses accepted the worship of
Jesus as appropriate.
Transition Period
By the mid-20th century, the organization's perspective began to change.
In 1954, The Watchtower addressed the translation of the Greek word
proskuneo, which is often rendered as "worship" in English Bibles. They
argued that proskuneo can mean "obeisance" or deep respect, not
necessarily worship, especially when directed toward Jesus (The
Watchtower, 1 January 1954, p. 31). This distinction marked a shift in
their doctrinal stance.
Biblical Evidence for the Worship of Jesus
The Bible clearly presents examples of Jesus receiving worship in
1. The magi worshiped Jesus as a child, falling down before Him: "And
going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they
fell down and worshiped him" (Matthew 2:11, ESV).
2. After Jesus walked on water, His disciples worshiped Him: "And those
in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of
God'" (Matthew 14:33, ESV).
3. Following His resurrection, His disciples worshiped Him again: "And
when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted" (Matthew 28:17,
ESV).
4. The Father commands all angels to worship Jesus: "Let all God’s
angels worship him" (Hebrews 1:6, ESV).
5. In the heavenly vision, all creatures worship the Lamb alongside the
Father: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits
on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
forever and ever!'" (Revelation 5:13, ESV).
Current Position
Today, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that worship is due exclusively to
Jehovah God. They assert that while Jesus is honored as God's Son, He is
not to be worshiped. This position is reflected in their translation
choices, where proskuneo directed toward Jesus is rendered as
"obeisance" rather than "worship" (The Watchtower, 15 November 1970, p.
702).
Conclusion
The doctrinal evolution of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the worship of
Jesus highlights a significant shift from early acceptance to the
current exclusive devotion to Jehovah. This change underscores the
dynamic nature of their theological interpretations over time.
Sources
- "Interesting Queries." The Watchtower, 15 July 1898, p. 216.
- "Questions From Readers." The Watchtower, 1 January 1954, p. 31.
- "Obeisance or Worship?" The Watchtower, 15 November 1970, p. 702.

Post by Robert
So this doesn't settle the question of worship to Jesus.

Post by Robert
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly
you are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And
they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some
doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).

That is an exclamation! Like "Holy Cow", or "Oh my God", etc. Thomas
could have said the common expression "Oh my God", which you would
have jumped on to prove your point.

Post by Robert
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the
Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world,
he says, 'Let all God’s angels worship him'" (ESV).

Robert

2024-11-28 17:55:00 UTC

Post by z***@windstream.net
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:53:09 -0600, Christ Rose

Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:40:53 -0800
========================================

You have selected a bunch of verses which indicate we worship the

Hold on to your hats! You need to bring out that the Greek word that
"worship" is translated from is from Strong's "proskuneo" and can mean

“But G1161 in vain G3155 they do worship G4576
me, G3165 teaching G1321 for doctrines G1319 the
commandments G1778 of men. G444 ” (Mat 15:9, KJV+)

G4576(Strong)

σέβομαι sebomai

seb'-om-ahee

Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to revere, that is, adore: -
devout, religious, worship.

“Ye G5210 worship G4352 ye know G1492 not G3756
what: G3739 we G2249 know G1492 what G3739 we
worship: G4352 for G3754 salvation G4991 is G2076
of G1537 the G3588 Jews. G2453 ” (Jhn 4:22, KJV+)

G4352(Strong)

προσκυνέω proskuneō

pros-koo-neh’-o

From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a
doglicking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or
figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): -
worship.

Post by z***@windstream.net
"Proskuneo is a Greek word that means "to worship" and is most
commonly used in the New Testament. It can also mean "to kiss", as in
kissing the hand of a superior. In ancient Greek culture, it was used
to describe showing reverence and devotion to God."
(https://www.google.com/search?q=proskuneo&sa=Google+Search)

In Ancient Greek it was meant for all dignitaries, gods, etc. Even in other
languages it was used for mens relationships with their rulers such as Kings,
etc.

Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus the NWT is also correct in translating it to be "obeisance",
which supports the Scriptures that says that Jesus was CREATED by God,
-- King James
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn

"the firstborn." or, heir. Gr. prōtotokos [S# G4416: Rendered (1)firstborn:
Mat 1:25, Luk 2:7, Rom 8:29, Col 1:15; Col 1:18, Heb 11:28; Heb 12:23, (2)
firstbegotten: Heb 1:6, (3)first begotten: Rev 1:5], in this messianic
title,firstborn of all creation may be interpreted as "existing before all
creation" (LN 13,79) or "existing superior to all creation (LN 87.47).
FS22D4C, +Rom 8:29,FS157, +1Co 15:6, Lightfoot remarks, "all the Fathers of
the second and third centuries without exception, as far as I have noticed,
correctly refer it [the expression "first-born"] to the Eternal Word and not
to the Incarnate Christ." Compare Gen 41:51-52 with +**Jer 31:9, *Exo 4:22,
superiority of position, rank, priority. Deu 21:15-17, +**Psa 89:20; +**Psa
89:27, Consider Abraham’s sons: Ishmael was the firstborn, but Isaac was
the promised heir and seed, Gal 4:23, Consider also Jacob and Esau: Gen
25:23, *Mal 1:1; *Mal 1:2; *Mal 1:3, Rom 9:12-13, Among Jacob’s sons,
Reuben was the firstborn, but the birthright was Joseph’s, 1Ch 5:1-2, Simri
was made firstborn, 1Ch 26:10, though expressly not born first. Manasseh was
firstborn, but the blessing was given to Ephraim, Gen 48:14, If "firstborn"
invariably means "born first," then how can Israel (Exo 4:22), David (Psa
89:27), and Ephraim (+**Jer 31:9), and Christ (Rom 8:29, Col 1:15; Col 1:18,
Heb 1:6, Rev 1:5) all be called by God "my firstborn"? Therefore, use of the
term firstborn in reference to Christ says nothing concerning his origin, but
declares his position, rank, and office. Note the use of "firstborn" in Job
18:13, John Daille notes that we are to understand "…eldest or first born,
to signify the head, the lord, and the master. We say, therefore, that it is
in this sense we must understand the apostle’s words, Christ ’is the
first-born of every creature,’ that is, the Master and Lord of them; which
in no way implies that he himself is a creature; lords not being always of
the same extraction and lineage with their subjects, but most frequently of
another very different. And as it would be ridiculous reasoning to conclude
that he who has the dominion of death is death itself, under the colour that
Job terms him, ’the first-born of death;’ so is it most impertinent
arguing to infer that the Lord is a creature, because the apostle says here,
that he ’is the first-born of every creature’" (An Exposition of
Colossians, p. 102). The term first-born does not imply that Christ was a
created being. It has been interpreted as used in the absolute sense,
becoming a recognized title of Messiah;
[UCRT]

Post by z***@windstream.net
-- King James
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans
write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the
beginning of the creation of God;

"the beginning." or, source. This is a favorite Arian proof text, cited to
prove that Jesus is not eternal, but had a beginning, Jesus being understood
by them to be the first-created creature of God, through whom God created all
else in the universe. The underlying Greek word, archē, may be understood in
a passive sense, and rendered "the beginning," as the A.V., or more correctly
understood in the active sense, and rendered "the beginner," source, origin,
or principle of creation. Since God is eternal, and Jesus is God, the passive
sense is not suited to the context, as being out of harmony with the many
representations of Christ John has already given, whereby he in citing or
alluding to Old Testament passages has applied to Jesus Christ in the book of
Revelation what is in the Old Testament spoken of Jehovah (see related notes
at Act 11:21 note. Col 1:16 note. +*1Pe 2:3 note). Herman Gebhardt states
"that qualities, actions, and conditions which belong specifically to God,
are also ascribed to Christ, and to Him only," and "in Old Testament
expressions things which otherwise belong to God are frequently affirmed of
Christ. It is said of Christ that ’His head and His hairs were white like
wool,’ Rev 1:14; and in Dan 7:9, God is so represented. The eyes of Christ
are as a flame of fire, Rev 1:14; Rev 2:18; Rev 19:12; and in the same words
God’s omniscience is symbolized as directed with holy indignation against
all unrighteousness, Dan 10:6, The feet of Christ are ’like unto fine
brass, as if they burned in an oven,’ Rev 1:15; Rev 2:18; the same image
represents God’s power in treading down the wicked, Dan 10:6; Ezk 1:7, The
voice of Christ is as the voice of many waters, Rev 1:15; and we find a
similar representation of God’s power against His enemies, Dan 10:6; Ezk
1:24; Ezk 43:2; Psa 93:3, Christ’s countenance is as the sun shining in his
strength, Rev 1:16; and so it is said of God, Dan 10:6 (compare Jdg 5:21).
The seer fell down before Christ as if dead, Rev 1:17; a similar effect was
wrought by the appearance of God, Exo 33:20; Isa 6:5; Ezk 1:28; Dan 8:17-18;
Dan 10:7-9, Christ says, ’I am He that searcheth the reins and hearts, and
will give unto every one of you according to your works,’ Rev 2:23; and we
read that ’the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins,’ Psa 7:9, and
that He ’renders to every man according to his work,’ Psa 62:12, Christ
says, ’As many as I love I rebuke and chasten,’ Rev 3:19; and in Pro 3:12
we read ’whom the Lord loveth He correcteth.’ Christ calls Himself ’the
Amen,’ Rev 3:14; and the same expression is used of God, Isa 65:16, The
Lamb has ’seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God
sent forth into all the earth,’ Rev 5:6; and in Zec 4:10 we read of ’the
eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.’ According
to Rev 7:17, the Lamb will feed His people, and lead them to fountains of
living waters; and the same thing is said of Jehovah in Isa 49:10, What is
said of the anger of Christ, Rev 19:15 (compare Rev 14:10; Rev 14:14-16), is
drawn from a similar passage respecting God in Isa 63:1-6, The ’vesture
dipped in blood,’ worn by Christ, Rev 19:12, is said to have been worn by
God, Isa 63:1-2” [UCRT]

Post by z***@windstream.net
Yes, Jesus was the very first act of creation by God. And is His
firstborn Son. That is why he is so special to God and all of us.

As you can see from what was stipulated above, you and your org are in
previous error.
The end of which will result in eternal death, wherein the flames of torment
never cease, and the worm dieth not. From which a person can be delivered if
they were Born Again, into the newness of Life through Yeshua the Messiah,
The one who was risen from the dead. Yeshua/Jesus.

See if you can disprove all of the above.

Post by z***@windstream.net
Sincerely James.

I also just noted that you were responding to AI Rosie. Nonetheless I am
leaving my reply to you in this post.

Post by Christ Rose
- Matthew 2:11: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary
his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their
treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh" (ESV).
- Matthew 14:33: "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly
you are the Son of God'" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:9: "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And
they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him" (ESV).
- Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some
doubted" (ESV).
- John 9:38: "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him" (ESV).
- John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (ESV).
- Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (ESV).
- Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world,
he says, 'Let all Godâ€™s angels worship him'" (ESV).
- Revelation 5:11-14: "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and
the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering
myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and
wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!' And I heard every
creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and
all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!' And
the four living creatures said, 'Amen!' and the elders fell down and
worshiped" (ESV).

--
All messages with alt.atheism in the headers are now filterd out beginning
10/19.So posting to aa will in effect filter all your messages from being
read by me. Thus you are KF'ing yourself. VBG

In the Name of Jesus

2024-11-26 02:09:21 UTC

He...doesn't...know. The Lord Jesus is God. That is because Robert
interprets the bible according to his humanistic principles.

"My Lord and My God."

In the Name of Jesus
--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord. John
10:30 I and Father are one. If you can't see that the Lord Jesus is the
everlasting Father you are not born again and can't see the Kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt
are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that
hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything, He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance (voice, the Person) of
God. When you find Him you have found the author."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul, and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do; it is what you are."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free, and free indeed with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

"The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence or proof is to be found."

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not so that a book could pass
through it for a sinner to play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven. Such
is the love of God."

"The definition of an atheist: a man full of bluster and bullshit in his
meaninglessness pretending he is the meaning of life."

"Free will is not power; it is the choice that I allow; that choice is
still according to my power," says the Lord.

"What does a fool do? A fool looks for a "nothing" in a "something" in
order to explain the existence of existence."

"Unless you do all because He is who He is, all your religion is in vain."

"Every man is subject to God; He judges every man, and He is reality.
What a gift in a fallen world!"

"Love MUST be a choice or it is nothing but a law!"

"Why were all men born sinners? So that God could reveal Himself, so
that we would behold the glory of God, and that we should bring forth
the glory of God"

"God does not and will not arbitrate for any man to love Him! If God
isn't everything to you, He is nothing to you where the rubber meets the
road."

"It is the unforgivable sin not to love God with all your heart, soul,
and mind. What do you have that is lasting? It is not so much being
punished; it is what you are left with."

"Love isn't worth anything without first a free will choice for God to
birth it in a man."

"The point of salvation: desperation. Anything less than that is
self-righteousness."

"A sinner is not a believer in God; a sinner is a believer in sin."

"A piece of dirt is not the promised land; that is only a reflection.
The promised land is knowing Me, says the Lord."

"It is all about God or it is all about idolatry."

"The Lord Jesus is coming soon. He has always come soon."

"There is no revolving door of self-worship in a son of God's life!"

"There is no such thing as random!"

"You can't truly love without it being with all your heart."

"No one can see God without their whole heart. Unless you can see God,
you know nothing."

"You can't learn God; God has to reveal Himself to you."

"No sinner is sinless in any way."

"Only God is life; only the Kingdom of God of His "Nature" is life."

"What you believe is just a leaning on your own understanding; faith is
a leaning on the one you have chosen to trust."

"God uses the "letter" to crucify a man and raise him from the dead."

"Not fearing God is sheer stupidity for sinners."

"Self-righteousness is any exclusion of God in your heart, because any
exclusion reveals that you think more about yourself than what you
really are."

"Atheism: "The claim that life received from itself."

"But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false prophet."

"That light had to bear (bears all things) the darkness for us, but that
light did not ever become darkness."

"You must reach beyond the bible that tells you about Him, and into your
daily life to find Him in Person. He's there."

"What is wrong with Christendom? False understanding based on compromise."

"It is not in man to love his enemies. And if he tries, he is walking in
a lie and trying to raise himself up to the level of God."

"God has to be quiet now; we have our bible. Well, then, who is going to
speak?"

"It is all about the Lord in His glory and whether a man loves Him with
all for who He is."

"A son of God became the bible when he was born again because the Holy
Spirit took up residence in his heart as Lord."

z***@windstream.net

2024-11-27 14:55:19 UTC

Post by Robert
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.

Jesus is semi-quoting God here from Isaiah. It is God who they worship
in vain. Notice:

-- New King James
Isaiah 29:13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw
near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have
removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught
by the commandment of men,

(Matthew 15:9) It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they
teach commands of men as doctrines. (NWT)

Sincerely James.
Woman and God.
Bible discussion on it at
JW.org 11/25/2024

Thus Jesus is NOT being worshipped.

Post by Robert
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye
shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what weworship: for salvation
is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall
worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such
toworship him.
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they thatworship him must worship himin spirit
and in truth.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Christ Rose

2024-11-27 16:57:11 UTC

========================================
Wed, 27 Nov 2024 09:55:19 -0500
<***@4ax.com>
***@windstream.net wrote:
========================================

Post by Robert
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.

Jesus is semi-quoting God here from Isaiah. It is God who they worship
-- New King James
Isaiah 29:13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw
near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have
removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught
by the commandment of men,
(Matthew 15:9) It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they
teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (NWT)

Such as how Watchtower progressively labors to purge the Bible from
everything which points to the fact Jesus is YHWH in their false
"translation" (NWT). See https://www.christrose.news/nwt
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation

Robert

2024-11-27 19:00:46 UTC

Post by Robert
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.

Jesus is semi-quoting God here from Isaiah. It is God who they worship
in vain.

Yes, and so?

Post by z***@windstream.net
-- New King James
Isaiah 29:13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw
near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have
removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught
by the commandment of men,
(Matthew 15:9) It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they
teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (NWT)
Sincerely James.
Thus Jesus is NOT being worshipped.

Neither then, by the Jew, nor now by the “JW” and many who call
themselves ‘Christian’.

The verse right above that says very clearly, “Ye hypocrites, well did
Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their
mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But
in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of
men.” (Mat 15:7-9, KJV)

With Jesus clearly stating the scriptures, which they were all familiar with,
and reconciling that with their ongoing present actions of that day.
Pomposity at its finest, their commandments of theology, just like some
‘christians’ do today, commanding others do and behave according to their
carnal minds and theologies. Even the JW’s who try and claim that Yeshua
and Jehovah are not one and the same, yet they are not instructors of the
Mosaic law covenant, nor are they teaching the religious ways of the Jews, as
God commanded them to do, but instead are pretending to be disciples of Jesus
the Messiah, and teaching His doctrines, albeit highly modified, deceivingly
so, and as such Yeshua will deny them before his Heavenly Father. Thus their
religion is false, and is of ‘another gospel’ of which Paul stipulated
that they are accursed.

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Strong words are they, and full of meaning. However, this was not directed
solely to the JW, but to all men who are false prophets, teachers, etc. who
deny that Jesus is Lord.

When you followed the commands of the RCC that were decided by men and became
their traditions established of who, when, and how to worship those were the
precepts of men, and they you jumped from the frying pan into the fire, like
the proverbial frog being boiled to death. And you heed not the warnings of
Scripture, nor those around you pointing them out along with the errors of
the JW org.