behind the veil...

[Timothy Sutter]

something else funny;

Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,

but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

because Sarai is unable to bear
children of her own, and then,
all of a sudden, Sarah bears
children of her own.

it's almost as if, the "princess"
is under the guidance of an overseer
until such time as she becomes a "queen"

Sarai = princess
Sarah = queen

and then you get all that Solomon
"don't stir up love before its time" routine.

so anyway, if Sarah is the covenant of promise

and Hagar is the covenant of contract law

the promise bears children by contract law
until such time as the promise is fulfilled.

but also, in actual practice,

the children under contract are already born
and so, the contract is used as a temporary
governing authority until such time as

the children are -reborn- into the promise.

i know i know, the children of the -bound-
woman will never be apportioned along with
the children of the free woman.

but; "flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God"

so, not only do Hagar and Sarah represent
two covenants, but also, two births,

the first birth is unto the temporary dwellings
in the flesh and the second birth is unto the
eternal dwellings in the Spirit.

why can't Sarai bear
children of her own
immediately?

once again, it is God's will and not
man's desires that bring this work
to completion.

we shouldn't suggest that Hagar
is a slavery, but a -binding-
contractual relationship.

and we do not suggest that Sarah is free
-from- the contract, or free -in spite of-
the contract, but free in fulfillment
of the contract.

the contract that was entered in to by promise.

where, when God says;

"i promise to do this"

God -is- bound by oath.

that is, God's promise -is-
a binding contract and
cannot be broken.

the promise -is- the contract.

subsequent stipulations bring the
temporary to look toward the eternal
for ultimate salvation by grace.

and God leaves Abraham with Laughter.

get it? "Isaac..-->..laughter"?

..ha ha...oh nevermind.


anyway,
see yourself as there,
and you will be there.

see yourself in chains, and you
can never understand freedom.

see yourself as bound to God,
and Love is yours.

if you were born under contract,
seek to fulfill it,

if you were not born under contract,
seek first the Kingdom of God, and
and God will bless you as a Holy Temple.

no hidden sanity clauses

just a promise of Love

fulfilled in Christ.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,
because Sarai is unable to bear
children of her own, and then,
all of a sudden, Sarah bears
children of her own.
it's almost as if, the "princess"
is under the guidance of an overseer
until such time as she becomes a "queen"
Sarai = princess
Sarah = queen
and then you get all that Solomon
"don't stir up love before its time" routine.
so anyway, if Sarah is the covenant of promise
and Hagar is the covenant of contract law
the promise bears children by contract law
until such time as the promise is fulfilled.
but also, in actual practice,
the children under contract are already born
and so, the contract is used as a temporary
governing authority until such time as
the children are -reborn- into the promise.
i know i know, the children of the -bound-
woman will never be apportioned along with
the children of the free woman.
but; "flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God"
so, not only do Hagar and Sarah represent
two covenants, but also, two births,
the first birth is unto the temporary dwellings
in the flesh and the second birth is unto the
eternal dwellings in the Spirit.
why can't Sarai bear
children of her own
immediately?
once again, it is God's will and not
man's desires that bring this work
to completion.
we shouldn't suggest that Hagar
is a slavery, but a -binding-
contractual relationship.
and we do not suggest that Sarah is free
-from- the contract, or free -in spite of-
the contract, but free in fulfillment
of the contract.
the contract that was entered in to by promise.
where, when God says;
"i promise to do this"
God -is- bound by oath.
that is, God's promise -is-
a binding contract and
cannot be broken.
the promise -is- the contract.
subsequent stipulations bring the
temporary to look toward the eternal
for ultimate salvation by grace.
and God leaves Abraham with Laughter.
get it? "Isaac..-->..laughter"?
..ha ha...oh nevermind.
anyway,
see yourself as there,
and you will be there.
see yourself in chains, and you
can never understand freedom.
see yourself as bound to God,
and Love is yours.
if you were born under contract,
seek to fulfill it,
if you were not born under contract,
seek first the Kingdom of God, and
and God will bless you as a Holy Temple.
no hidden sanity clauses
just a promise of Love
fulfilled in Christ.

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

Mount Sinai is from where the law was given from God to Moses.
Jerusalem, the city of God, Peace. The place where Jesus died and was
resurrected so that we might all be freed. Where the New Covenant was
given.

Jesus is the seed of promise, and the believers in Christ, both Jew
and Gentile, are those that are the children of Freedom.

Anyhow I was not sure I could adequately explain the 4th chapter, so
here I included a commentary that I felt comfortable with on the
subject, and hope it clarifies things and/or keeps us on the same
page.


***********************************************
He acquaints them with the meaning and design of this history, or the
use which he intended to make of it (Gal_4:24-27): These things, says
he, are an allegory, wherein, besides the literal and historical sense
of the words, the Spirit of God might design to signify something
further to us, and that was, That these two, Agar and Sarah, are the
two covenants, or were intended to typify and prefigure the two
different dispensations of the covenant. The former, Agar, represented
that which was given from mount Sinai, and which gendereth to bondage,
which, though it was a dispensation of grace, yet, in comparison of
the gospel state, was a dispensation of bondage, and became more so to
the Jews, through their mistake of the design of it, and expecting to
be justified by the works of it. For this Agar is mount Sinai in
Arabia (mount Sinai was then called Agar by the Arabians), and it
answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her
children; that is, it justly represents the present state of the Jews,
who, continuing in their infidelity and adhering to that covenant, are
still in bondage with their children. But the other, Sarah, was
intended to prefigure Jerusalem which is above, or the state of
Christians under the new and better dispensation of the covenant,
which is free both from the curse of the moral and the bondage of the
ceremonial law, and is the mother of us all - a state into which all,
both Jews and Gentiles, are admitted, upon their believing in Christ.
And to this greater freedom and enlargement of the church under the
gospel dispensation, which was typified by Sarah the mother of the
promised seed, the apostle refers that of the prophet, Isa_54:1, where
it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and
cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more
children than she who hath a husband. 3. He applies the history thus
explained to the present case (Gal_4:28); Now we, brethren, says he,
as Isaac was, are the children of the promise. We Christians, who have
accepted Christ, and rely upon him, and look for justification and
salvation by him alone, as hereby we become the spiritual, though we
are not the natural, seed of Abraham, so we are entitled to the
promised inheritance and interested in the blessings of it. But lest
these Christians should be stumbled at the opposition they might meet
with from the Jews, who were so tenacious of their law as to be ready
to persecute those who would not submit to it, he tells them that this
was no more than what was pointed to in the type; for as then he that
was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the
Spirit, they must expect it would be so now. But, for their comfort in
this case, he desires them to consider what the scripture saith
(Gen_21:10), Cast out the bond-woman and her son, for the son of the
bond-woman shall not be heir with the son of the free-woman. Though
the judaizers should persecute and hate them, yet the issue would be
that Judaism would sink, and wither, and perish; but true Christianity
should flourish and last for ever. And then, as a general inference
from the whole of the sum of what he had said, he concludes
(Gal_4:31), So then, brethren, we are not children of the bond-woman,
but of the free. [BBC]
****************************************

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?

"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

"Law of God" is -not- "law of sin and death"

=children=, even though heirs, are like servants,
and are under the tutelage of higher authorities,
rules and regulations.

put this together with Galatians 4 and see what happens;

===
Romans 7:1-6

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),
that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the
woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long
as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law
of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries
another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband
dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress,
though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren,
you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from
the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were
in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the
law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died
to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the
newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
===

Galatians 4

4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child,
does not differ at all from a servant, though he
is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards
until the time appointed by the father. Even so we,
when we were children, were

in bondage under the elements of the world.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law,
o redeem those who were under the law, that we might
receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the
Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out,
“Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a servant
but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

<weak and beggarly elements in bondage to>

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear
the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons:
the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But
he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the
flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,

which things are symbolic. For these are the two
covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives
birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this
Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds
to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with
her children—

insert John 8 here
==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.


notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==



==
Back to Galatians 4


but the Jerusalem above is free,
which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children
of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according
to the flesh then persecuted him who was born
according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the
son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then,
brethren, we are not children of the
bondwoman but of the free.
===

all Israel and all everyone else is "born to the flesh"

aren't they?


but anyway, backtracking a bot, you do realize

that The Kingdom first seated by Saul and
then David, -was- The Kingdom of God" right?

after all, YHWH said, "it is not -you- they
are rejecting as king, it is ME they are rejecting.

===
1 Samuel 8:7

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice
of the people in all that they say to you; for
they have not rejected you, but they have
rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
===

also,

you do know that YHWH was married to Israel
and that such a marriage remains in effect
until such time as one of the parties dies.

if you look at Jeremiah 3 ,sure, YHWH says
something about sending Israel away but,
then turns around 5 seconds later and say;

"i am married to you"

so, if YHWH is ever married to Israel and Judah
that marriage is in effect until such time
as one of the parties dies, after all, Jesus
says that YHWH did not grant divorce, but the
_Moses_ allowed divorce because of stiffnecks
and hard hearts.

anyway YHWH 'dies' -through- Jesus so that Israel
would be free to marry another, namely the Risen Christ
who Is the precise IMage of YHWH, and whose "head"
is actually YHWH God ...

the "bondage" if any could be said to exist,
is between the flesh and the beggarly
elements of the world.

the Law of God is =not= the law of sin and death

The Law did not cause Jesus to fall in to 'sin' now did it?

Paul just says that the law tended to expose
what was already at work in the human beings,
not precisely that thr Law =put it there=.

any clearer?

we may very well not be on the same page,

but that's not big deal.

try not to turn the New Testament
in to a new Letter of the Law.

Hagar is flesh
Sarah is Spirit

in allegorical fashion.

Sinai covenant if a contract with flesh children

-not- all of whom were filled with the Spirit as
was Moses and then teh 70 elders and various et ceterae.

it was a bone fide offer/agreement and not some
elaborate hoax played by God on the childen of Israel.

i'll stop here.

i don't know what you don't understand about what i said.


i stop here for now, you tell me what you don't get.


i clear...

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

Gal 4:24 speaks of the Mosaic Law 4:26 speaks of Christ, the seed of
promise.

Post by Timothy Sutter
"Law of God" is -not- "law of sin and death"

Then are you isolating some "Law of God" that is independent Of the
Mosaic Law? The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

Post by Timothy Sutter
=children=, even though heirs, are like servants,
and are under the tutelage of higher authorities,
rules and regulations.

In Christ we are no longer servants.
What does the scripture say here?

Post by Timothy Sutter
put this together with Galatians 4 and see what happens;
===
Romans 7:1-6
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),
that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the
woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long
as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law
of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries
another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband
dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress,
though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren,
you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from
the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were
in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the
law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died
to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the
newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
===
Galatians 4
4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child,
does not differ at all from a servant, though he
is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards
until the time appointed by the father. Even so we,
when we were children, were
in bondage under the elements of the world.
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law,
o redeem those who were under the law, that we might
receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the
Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out,
“Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a servant
but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
<weak and beggarly elements in bondage to>
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear
the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But
he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the
flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
which things are symbolic. For these are the two
covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives
birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this
Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds
to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with
her children—
insert John 8 here
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==
==
Back to Galatians 4
but the Jerusalem above is free,
which is the mother of us all.
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children
of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according
to the flesh then persecuted him who was born
according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the
son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then,
brethren, we are not children of the
bondwoman but of the free.
===
all Israel and all everyone else is "born to the flesh"
aren't they?
but anyway, backtracking a bot, you do realize
that The Kingdom first seated by Saul and
then David, -was- The Kingdom of God" right?
after all, YHWH said, "it is not -you- they
are rejecting as king, it is ME they are rejecting.
===
1 Samuel 8:7
And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice
of the people in all that they say to you; for
they have not rejected you, but they have
rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
===
also,
you do know that YHWH was married to Israel
and that such a marriage remains in effect
until such time as one of the parties dies.
if you look at Jeremiah 3 ,sure, YHWH says
something about sending Israel away but,
then turns around 5 seconds later and say;
"i am married to you"
so, if YHWH is ever married to Israel and Judah
that marriage is in effect until such time
as one of the parties dies, after all, Jesus
says that YHWH did not grant divorce, but the
_Moses_ allowed divorce because of stiffnecks
and hard hearts.
anyway YHWH 'dies' -through- Jesus so that Israel
would be free to marry another, namely the Risen Christ
who Is the precise IMage of YHWH, and whose "head"
is actually YHWH God ...
the "bondage" if any could be said to exist,
is between the flesh and the beggarly
elements of the world.
the Law of God is =not= the law of sin and death
The Law did not cause Jesus to fall in to 'sin' now did it?
Paul just says that the law tended to expose
what was already at work in the human beings,
not precisely that thr Law =put it there=.
any clearer?
we may very well not be on the same page,
but that's not big deal.
try not to turn the New Testament
in to a new Letter of the Law.
Hagar is flesh
Sarah is Spirit
in allegorical fashion.
Sinai covenant if a contract with flesh children
-not- all of whom were filled with the Spirit as
was Moses and then teh 70 elders and various et ceterae.
it was a bone fide offer/agreement and not some
elaborate hoax played by God on the childen of Israel.
i'll stop here.
i don't know what you don't understand about what i said.
i stop here for now, you tell me what you don't get.
i clear...

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.
Gal 4:24 speaks of the Mosaic Law 4:26 speaks of Christ, the seed of
promise.

Post by Timothy Sutter
"Law of God" is -not- "law of sin and death"

Then are you isolating some "Law of God" that is independent Of the
Mosaic Law? The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

Post by Timothy Sutter
=children=, even though heirs, are like servants,
and are under the tutelage of higher authorities,
rules and regulations.

In Christ we are no longer servants.
What does the scripture say here?

Post by Timothy Sutter
put this together with Galatians 4 and see what happens;
===
Romans 7:1-6
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),
that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the
woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long
as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law
of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries
another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband
dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress,
though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren,
you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from
the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were
in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the
law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died
to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the
newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
===
Galatians 4
4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child,
does not differ at all from a servant, though he
is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards
until the time appointed by the father. Even so we,
when we were children, were
in bondage under the elements of the world.
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law,
o redeem those who were under the law, that we might
receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the
Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out,
“Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a servant
but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
<weak and beggarly elements in bondage to>
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear
the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But
he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the
flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
which things are symbolic. For these are the two
covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives
birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this
Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds
to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with
her children—
insert John 8 here
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==
==
Back to Galatians 4
but the Jerusalem above is free,
which is the mother of us all.
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children
of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according
to the flesh then persecuted him who was born
according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the
son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then,
brethren, we are not children of the
bondwoman but of the free.
===
all Israel and all everyone else is "born to the flesh"
aren't they?
but anyway, backtracking a bot, you do realize
that The Kingdom first seated by Saul and
then David, -was- The Kingdom of God" right?
after all, YHWH said, "it is not -you- they
are rejecting as king, it is ME they are rejecting.
===
1 Samuel 8:7
And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice
of the people in all that they say to you; for
they have not rejected you, but they have
rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
===
also,
you do know that YHWH was married to Israel
and that such a marriage remains in effect
until such time as one of the parties dies.
if you look at Jeremiah 3 ,sure, YHWH says
something about sending Israel away but,
then turns around 5 seconds later and say;
"i am married to you"
so, if YHWH is ever married to Israel and Judah
that marriage is in effect until such time
as one of the parties dies, after all, Jesus
says that YHWH did not grant divorce, but the
_Moses_ allowed divorce because of stiffnecks
and hard hearts.
anyway YHWH 'dies' -through- Jesus so that Israel
would be free to marry another, namely the Risen Christ
who Is the precise IMage of YHWH, and whose "head"
is actually YHWH God ...
the "bondage" if any could be said to exist,
is between the flesh and the beggarly
elements of the world.
the Law of God is =not= the law of sin and death
The Law did not cause Jesus to fall in to 'sin' now did it?
Paul just says that the law tended to expose
what was already at work in the human beings,
not precisely that thr Law =put it there=.
any clearer?
we may very well not be on the same page,
but that's not big deal.
try not to turn the New Testament
in to a new Letter of the Law.
Hagar is flesh
Sarah is Spirit
in allegorical fashion.
Sinai covenant if a contract with flesh children
-not- all of whom were filled with the Spirit as
was Moses and then teh 70 elders and various et ceterae.
it was a bone fide offer/agreement and not some
elaborate hoax played by God on the childen of Israel.
i'll stop here.
i don't know what you don't understand about what i said.
i stop here for now, you tell me what you don't get.
i clear...

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

"elements of the world" is -not- God's Law

now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.


you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]

[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]

[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit

[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body

[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.


now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]

Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3

but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.

never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2

nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.

staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.


==
Romans 8:1-8

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.

For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:

He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].

For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===



===
Romans 7:21-25

I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?

I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===

here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.

a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]

and God's Law.[3=>1]

the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].

remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.

==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==

the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.

==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==

any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.

the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,

the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.

now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.

no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.

and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.

etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

so...what then? [Hagar first, then Sarah]
[flesh first, then spirit]

Hagar is not a "slave contract" but
rather, a contract =with= a _slave_ [flesh]

Sarah is an agreement =for= a free man, [spirit]
which is entered in to -by- a child. [transitional]


Hagar shows a way to freedom but the 'slave' has an inability
to see through the veil of the flesh and in to the Holiest of all Places
which is held in unapproachable Light, so he falters,

Sarah saunters in with her still small voice, piercing through
the veil of the flesh, and impregnates the man with this new Life
that is fully enabled to realize this freedom -with- God.



=========




and look, Israel even after having dealings with YHWH
and promises are made and wrestling matches occur,
wanders down in to Egypt, and sinks in to the mud pits
slaving for its daily bread, just as the body can
have the effect of slaving the mind to -its- bidding.

so, YHWH yanks Israel out of the mud of its slaving existence

but, still, Israel has the slave mentality firmly in place
and it isn't letting go so easily, and the people are still
made of flesh and blood, and still need their daily bread,
and most still need their daily shot of slave chemicals as well,
but that's a TOTALLY nuther story.

so anyway, i'll stop the slavery story here and go on to freedom...

So, there's Sarah, and she's a contract with a free man, but

she can only -be- a 'promise' as long as the man is still a slave.

but it looks as if, once again, it requires that strong arm

to pull the slave out of his slavery and in to his freedom

even if you =show= 'him' "the way" and this 'slave'

may very well be ingenious with a brilliantly inventive mind,

but, all he manages to invent is a more perfect prison environment.

oops, looks as if slavery and slave mentality is still

coming along for the ride here even though Sarah has been instituted,

so, we'll try to rectify this without getting lost in the search

for earthy wordy tools to describe an unseen phenomenon.

so anyway, [so anyway, i need a new transition statement,
"so anyway" is getting overused]

how 'bout "Furthermore"? yeah yeah, "Furthermore...for a while...

so anyway,

FURTHERMORE; furthermore, now, we have a promise of 'freedom'
and an experience of slavery, all going on at the same time.


but yet, the only people who -can- enter in to this 'freedom'

are former slaves, even if those slaves are called 'children'

cuz that's all there is anyway, as we had all fallen in to the
mud pits and even been born in the mud pits cuz that's the way
our minds work without the Spirit of Life gleaming in our eyes.

so, so someone shows a slave a bunch of words that
promises him freedom and he looks at them and says;

"wonderful, now what's for tea daughter?"

"what's for dinner?" the age olde question...

he doesn't really seem to believe that the words can
purchase his freedom or even lead him in to a free state.

so, at best, he stitches a brand new suit out of the pages,

and continues on as a slave with an even more intense
prisoner attitude which may seek to ease his failings
and shortcomings at the expense of others.

how to get this slave in to the free state
and consider him a child of Sarah.

"you must be born again" born -of- The Spirit

or else, the slave can =never= perceive his own freedom


FURTHERMORE;

[Timothy Sutter]

here's an interesting bit; i notice, it's the "word of YHWH"
i'll place a few comments after the passage. further citations
after some comments should lend clarity to the understanding
of BaaL as well.


==
Jeremiah 34:8-11
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all
the people who were at Jerusalem to proclaim liberty
to them: that every man should set free his male
and female slave--a Hebrew man or woman--that no one
should keep a Jewish brother in bondage. Now when
all the princes and all the people, who had entered
into the covenant, heard that everyone should set free
his male and female slaves, that no one should keep
them in bondage anymore, they obeyed and let them go.
But afterward they changed their minds and made
the male and female slaves return, whom they had
set free, and brought them into subjection as
male and female slaves.


12-14
Therefore the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
saying, "Thus says YHWH, the God of Israel: "I made a
covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought
them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage,
saying, "At the end of seven years let every man set free
his Hebrew brother, who has been sold to him; and when
he has served you six years, you shall let him go free
from you." But your fathers did not obey Me nor incline
their ear.


15-16
Then you recently turned and did what was right in My sight
--every man proclaiming liberty to his neighbor; and you made
a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name.
16Then you turned around and profaned My name, and every one
of you brought back his male and female slaves, whom he had
set at liberty, at their pleasure, and brought them back into
subjection, to be your male and female slaves.'


17
"Therefore thus says YHWH: "You have not obeyed Me in
proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and every
one to his neighbor. Behold, I proclaim liberty to you,'
says YHWH
===


"you have not obeyed me in proclaiming Liberty"

-that's- what YHWH says.

"behold, I proclaim Liberty to you"

-that's what YHWH says.



this entire incident says that the people
failed to incline their ears to the ways
of YHWH and did -not- proclaim Liberty and
held their own people as slaves against
the dictates of The Law.

the word of YHWH which came to Jeremiah
-cites- The Law [verse 12-14] and then faults
the people for not living up to that, so,
it's the same YHWH and not some different
YHWH than the YHWH who spoke to Moses.

just so that's clear.

but now, look at this;


==
Jeremiah 2:8
The priests did not say, "Where is YHWH?' And those
who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers also
transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied
by Baal, And walked after things that do not profit.

Jeremiah 2:23
"How can you say, "I am not polluted, I have not
gone after the Baals'? See your way in the valley;
Know what you have done: You are a swift dromedary
breaking loose in her ways,

Jeremiah 9:14
but they have walked according to the dictates
of their own hearts and after the Baals, which
their fathers taught them,"

[speaking of the neighboring nations]
Jeremiah 12:16
And it shall be, if they will learn carefully
the ways of My people, to swear by My name,
"As YHWH lives,' as they taught My people
to swear by Baal, then they shall be
established in the midst of My people.

Jeremiah 23:13
"And I have seen folly in the prophets
of Samaria: They prophesied by Baal And
caused My people Israel to err.

Jeremiah 23:27
who try to make My people forget My name
by their dreams which everyone tells his
neighbor, as their fathers forgot
My name for Baal.
===


look, YHWH is chastizing the people thru Jeremiah
for abandoning YHWH for ...BAAL, -and- he faults
them for -not- proclaiming personal Liberty and
freedom and enslaving their own brothers
-against- the issuance of statements thru Moses.


this inference is not even a hop much less a grand leap.

YHWH says;

'proclaim liberty'

the people -err- and enslave their own brothers,

and YHWH says,

"you have wandered off in error after BAAL"

therefore, not -only- do we -see- YHWH
proclaiming Liberty if preference to slavery,

but we see YHWH saying that BAAL was
the error into which the people had fallen.

-therefore-

we can now trace back all reference to BAAL
as a definite indication as to the source
of the Slavery which is opposed to YHWH's
proclamation of Liberty.

-and- therefore,

see YHWH's severe antagonism against
BAAL as a condemnation of Slavery,
in no uncertain terms.

YHWH didn't change.

YHWH proclaims Liberty.

what we may also infer is that YHWH
gives -time- to remedy a situation,
but if that situation is not remedied,

YHWH is right there to set you back a step.


i have some more bits on this...

[Michael Christ]

Dear Timothy,

Shut up.

Kind regards,

Michael Christ

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

OK Timothy, lets try this one more time.

You said that, "Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-"

To start with, show me where there is a specific covenant for each.
What they are called. "elements of the world" is not a covenant.

As I said, it seems to me that you are confusing issues here. And this
is making it impossible to communicate. What I tried to say the first
time was accurate. The second time you appeared to be more interested
in the "elements of this world" but still came across as if it were
somehow tied to a covenant.

This time you focused, indirectly on the "elements" thing. It took me
a while to disregard everything else you brought to the plate and just
focus on the "elements" portion of it.

I had to do some serious prayer about that for clarity's sake. So,
while not jumping into the "elements" portion just yet, and I tend to
agree with your points on it, we need to get the mud out of the waters
of discussion so that we can be on the same page.

In order to do that we need clarity on your original points which I
addressed at the beginning of this post, the two covenants, and also
understand that Paul said he was comparing Hagar and Sarah as an
allegory, not a literal covenant, and when he spoke of Sinai and
Jerusalem he was speaking directly to the differences of the two
Covenants, the one of sin and death, the other of Life.

If you cannot see what I am saying, and how what Paul said fits in
with all this, then perhaps it is best to lay it aside to meditate on
for a short while.

Regards

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

"elements of the world" is -not- God's Law
now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.
you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]
[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]
[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit
[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body
[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.
now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]
Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3
but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.
never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2
nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.
staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.
==
Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.
For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].
For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===
===
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===
here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.
a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]
and God's Law.[3=>1]
the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].
remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.
==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==
the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.
==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==
any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.
the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,
the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.
now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.
no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.
and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==
it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.
etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

OK Timothy, lets try this one more time.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

=
Galatians 4:3-6

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements
of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those
who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no
longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through
Christ.
=


""in bondage under the elements of the world.""


nothing about being in bondage to Sinai laws

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

false, see below

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.
you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]
[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]
[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit
[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body
[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.
now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]
Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3
but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.
never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2
nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.
staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.
==
Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.
For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].
For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===
===
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===
here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.
a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]
and God's Law.[3=>1]
the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].
remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.
==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==
the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.
==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==
any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.
the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,
the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.
now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.
no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.
and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==
it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.
etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

OK Timothy, lets try this one more time.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

Timothy, you snipped out what I wrote or just pasted this over,
whatever.

I am serious about restarting where you said that,

" Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants, and that one is -bound-
and one is -free-,"

I really need to know where you find that, and also what are their two
specific covenants. Otherwise I cannot follow your logic here. :(

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Galatians 4:3-6
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements
of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those
who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no
longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through
Christ.
=
""in bondage under the elements of the world.""
nothing about being in bondage to Sinai laws

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

false, see below

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.
you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]
[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]
[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit
[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body
[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.
now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]
Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3
but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.
never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2
nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.
staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.
==
Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.
For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].
For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===
===
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===
here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.
a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]
and God's Law.[3=>1]
the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].
remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.
==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==
the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.
==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==
any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.
the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,
the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.
now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.
no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.
and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==
it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.
etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

OK Timothy, lets try this one more time.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

Timothy, you snipped out what I wrote or just pasted this over,
whatever.

snipped it and addressed it.

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?

until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Post by Robert
I am serious about restarting where you said that,
" Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants, and that one is -bound-
and one is -free-,"

yes, one is bound and one is free.

Hagar is not a "slave contract" but
rather, a contract =with= a _slave_ [flesh]

Sarah is an agreement =for= a free man, [spirit]
which is entered in to -by- a child. [transitional]


Hagar shows a way to freedom but the 'slave' has an inability
to see through the veil of the flesh and in to the Holiest of all Places
which is held in unapproachable Light, so he falters,

Sarah saunters in with her still small voice, piercing through
the veil of the flesh, and impregnates the man with this new Life
that is fully enabled to realize this freedom -with- God.



=========




and look, Israel even after having dealings with YHWH
and promises are made and wrestling matches occur,
wanders down in to Egypt, and sinks in to the mud pits
slaving for its daily bread, just as the body can
have the effect of slaving the mind to -its- bidding.

so, YHWH yanks Israel out of the mud of its slaving existence

but, still, Israel has the slave mentality firmly in place
and it isn't letting go so easily, and the people are still
made of flesh and blood, and still need their daily bread,
and most still need their daily shot of slave chemicals as well,
but that's a TOTALLY nuther story.

so anyway, i'll stop the slavery story here and go on to freedom...

So, there's Sarah, and she's a contract with a free man, but

she can only -be- a 'promise' as long as the man is still a slave.

but it looks as if, once again, it requires that strong arm

to pull the slave out of his slavery and in to his freedom

even if you =show= 'him' "the way" and this 'slave'

may very well be ingenious with a brilliantly inventive mind,

but, all he manages to invent is a more perfect prison environment.

oops, looks as if slavery and slave mentality is still

coming along for the ride here even though Sarah has been instituted,

so, we'll try to rectify this without getting lost in the search

for earthy wordy tools to describe an unseen phenomenon.

so anyway, [so anyway, i need a new transition statement,
"so anyway" is getting overused]

how 'bout "Furthermore"? yeah yeah, "Furthermore...for a while...

so anyway,

FURTHERMORE; furthermore, now, we have a promise of 'freedom'
and an experience of slavery, all going on at the same time.


but yet, the only people who -can- enter in to this 'freedom'

are former slaves, even if those slaves are called 'children'

cuz that's all there is anyway, as we had all fallen in to the
mud pits and even been born in the mud pits cuz that's the way
our minds work without the Spirit of Life gleaming in our eyes.

so, so someone shows a slave a bunch of words that
promises him freedom and he looks at them and says;

"wonderful, now what's for tea daughter?"

"what's for dinner?" the age olde question...

he doesn't really seem to believe that the words can
purchase his freedom or even lead him in to a free state.

so, at best, he stitches a brand new suit out of the pages,

and continues on as a slave with an even more intense
prisoner attitude which may seek to ease his failings
and shortcomings at the expense of others.

how to get this slave in to the free state
and consider him a child of Sarah.

"you must be born again" born -of- The Spirit

or else, the slave can =never= perceive his own freedom


FURTHERMORE;

Post by Robert
I really need to know where you find that, and also what are their two
specific covenants. Otherwise I cannot follow your logic here. :(

you say, "slave to The Law of God, ===this is false

Jesus and Paul say; "slave to sin"

mend this stance, it is incorrect.

==
Romans 7:21-25

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who
wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according
to the inward man. But I see another law in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death?
==

"""But I see another law in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind,"""

"another law" is -not- "Law of Moses" mend that.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Galatians 4:3-6
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements
of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those
who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no
longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through
Christ.
=
""in bondage under the elements of the world.""
nothing about being in bondage to Sinai laws

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

false, see below

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.
you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]
[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]
[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit
[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body
[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.
now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]
Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3
but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.
never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2
nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.
staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.
==
Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.
For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].
For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===
===
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===
here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.
a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]
and God's Law.[3=>1]
the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].
remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.
==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==
the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.
==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==
any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.
the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,
the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.
now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.
no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.
and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==
it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.
etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

OK Timothy, lets try this one more time.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

Timothy, you snipped out what I wrote or just pasted this over,
whatever.

snipped it and addressed it.
you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members. 
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death? 
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death. 

I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew. But it
had nothing to do with your statement about two distinct covenants
with Hagar and Sarah.

This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
I am serious about restarting where you said that,
" Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants, and that one is -bound-
and one is -free-,"

yes, one is bound and one is free.
Hagar is not a "slave contract" but
rather, a contract =with= a _slave_ [flesh]
Sarah is an agreement =for= a free man, [spirit]
which is entered in to -by- a child. [transitional]
Hagar shows a way to freedom but the 'slave' has an inability
to see through the veil of the flesh and in to the Holiest of all Places
which is held in unapproachable Light, so he falters,
Sarah saunters in with her still small voice, piercing through
the veil of the flesh, and impregnates the man with this new Life
that is fully enabled to realize this freedom -with- God.
=========
and look, Israel even after having dealings with YHWH
and promises are made and wrestling matches occur,
wanders down in to Egypt, and sinks in to the mud pits
slaving for its daily bread, just as the body can
have the effect of slaving the mind to -its- bidding.
so, YHWH yanks Israel out of the mud of its slaving existence
but, still, Israel has the slave mentality firmly in place
and it isn't letting go so easily, and the people are still
made of flesh and blood, and still need their daily bread,
and most still need their daily shot of slave chemicals as well,
but that's a TOTALLY nuther story.
so anyway, i'll stop the slavery story here and go on to freedom...
So, there's Sarah, and she's a contract with a free man, but
she can only -be- a 'promise' as long as the man is still a slave.
but it looks as if, once again, it requires that strong arm
to pull the slave out of his slavery and in to his freedom
even if you =show= 'him' "the way" and this 'slave'
may very well be ingenious with a brilliantly inventive mind,
but, all he manages to invent is a more perfect prison environment.
oops, looks as if slavery and slave mentality is still
coming along for the ride here even though Sarah has been instituted,
so, we'll try to rectify this without getting lost in the search
for earthy wordy tools to describe an unseen phenomenon.
so anyway, [so anyway, i need a new transition statement,
"so anyway" is getting overused]
how 'bout "Furthermore"? yeah yeah, "Furthermore...for a while...
so anyway,
FURTHERMORE; furthermore, now, we have a promise of 'freedom'
and an experience of slavery, all going on at the same time.
but yet, the only people who -can- enter in to this 'freedom'
are former slaves, even if those slaves are called 'children'
cuz that's all there is anyway, as we had all fallen in to the
mud pits and even been born in the mud pits cuz that's the way
our minds work without the Spirit of Life gleaming in our eyes.
so, so someone shows a slave a bunch of words that
promises him freedom and he looks at them and says;
"wonderful, now what's for tea daughter?"
"what's for dinner?" the age olde question...
he doesn't really seem to believe that the words can
purchase his freedom or even lead him in to a free state.
so, at best, he stitches a brand new suit out of the pages,
and continues on as a slave with an even more intense
prisoner attitude which may seek to ease his failings
and shortcomings at the expense of others.
how to get this slave in to the free state
and consider him a child of Sarah.
"you must be born again" born -of- The Spirit
or else, the slave can =never= perceive his own freedom
FURTHERMORE;

Post by Robert
I really need to know where you find that, and also what are their two
specific covenants. Otherwise I cannot follow your logic here. :(

you say, "slave to The Law of God, ===this is false
Jesus and Paul say; "slave to sin"
mend this stance, it is incorrect.
==
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who
wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according
to the inward man. But I see another law in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death?
==
"""But I see another law in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind,"""
"another law" is -not- "Law of Moses" mend that.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Galatians 4:3-6
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements
of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent
forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those
who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no
longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through
Christ.
=
""in bondage under the elements of the world.""
nothing about being in bondage to Sinai laws

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

false, see below

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.
you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]
[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]
[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit
[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body
[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.
now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]
Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3
but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.
never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2
nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.
staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.
==
Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.
For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].
For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===
===
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===
here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.
a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]
and God's Law.[3=>1]
the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].
remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.
==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==
the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.
==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==
any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.
the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,
the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.
now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.
no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.
and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==
it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.
etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"

if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.

if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.

it's very easy, just retract that statement.

Post by Robert
But it had nothing to do with your statement about
two distinct covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.

if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.

if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel

you are mistaken.

Clarify this, or say no more.

Post by Robert
This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.


==
Exodus 19:7-9

So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==

Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it

=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from

the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.

mind you, a verse you may like to quote;

just look;

===
Hebrews 8:7-9

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when
I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===


notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel

"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."


"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""


you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.

etc

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

It isn't going to happen. You can see in Romans 8:2 That Jesus freed
the Jew and everyone from the Law of Sin and death.

Here you can see that Paul in verse 5 that the motions of sin, which
were by the Law, meaning Mosaic Law brings forth Death.

Sin and Death.

Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him
who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto
God. 
Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which
were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
death. 

Paul reiterates the point that it was the Law that made sin evident.
And without the Law, there was no sin.

Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 
Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Again, sin and death by the Law

Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death. 
Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me. 
Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good. 

So then why did something which was good kill us?

Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 
Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin. 
Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I. 
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good. 
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth
in me. 
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no
good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not. 
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do. 
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me. 
Rom 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is
present with me. 
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 
Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members. 
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death? 

Under the Mosaic Law, forgives came by the Blood sacrifice for Sin,
every year, it forgave for the previous year, and covered you like an
insurance policy if you happened to die before your next sacrifice.

The Mosaic Law came with Blessings and Cursing's. Not one person who
was Jewish lived a sinless life, out side of Christ.

Israel could not attain to righteousness because they, like some
churches operate by works of the law and not by faith,


Rom 9:31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness,
hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 
Rom 9:32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it
were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
stumblingstone; 
Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
But it had nothing to do with your statement about
two distinct covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.

That was not your original statement, nor your original premise. And
you never came to grips with Sinai and Jerusalem.

Post by Timothy Sutter
if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.

Are you mixing up bondage and slavery? as in
Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

No one forced the Jew into the Mosaic Law, they, the Israelites all
voted on it after it was read to them, They signed on to the covenant
and pledged theyselves.

Post by Timothy Sutter
if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

It was a mutual contract, ratified by the nation of Israel.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it

That "bound" is the bondage spoken of. Not the slavery you speak of.

Post by Timothy Sutter
=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when
I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."

They divorced him, first the ten tribes and then the rest later on.

Post by Timothy Sutter
"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

In Christ were are freed from the law written in tablets of stone, and
he writes his new laws in our hearts of flesh. The are more like the
desire of our hearts to do, out of and because of Love.

You certainly have a lot to mull over.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law

Post by Robert
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body

Post by Robert
of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the

mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Post by Robert
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

It isn't going to happen. You can see in Romans 8:2 That Jesus freed
the Jew and everyone from the Law of Sin and death.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==

Post by Robert
Here you can see that Paul in verse 5 that the motions of sin, which
were by the Law, meaning Mosaic Law brings forth Death.
Sin and Death.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him
who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto
God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which
were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
death.

==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

Post by Robert
Paul reiterates the point that it was the Law that made sin evident.
And without the Law, there was no sin.

people are sinning and dying without the law,
there is sin and there is death from Adam to Moses.

==
Galatians 3:18-20

19 What purpose then does the law serve?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
==

clearly "transgressions" exist prior to the law,
just as "sin" existed prior to the law, and one
could even equate the two, "transgression = sin"

an agreement that was clearly temporary,
but nonetheless, -not- "sin" itself.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Again, sin and death by the Law

no, the law is a tutor and a guard to keep the people
from wandering too far away -in- to 'sin' and from
their goal which is Christ;

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good.

sin deceived him, Paul practically sounds like Eve;

"the serpent tricked me, and i ate"

Paul says; "=sin= _tricked_ me, and i transgressed further"

Paul does not say;

"the law delivered me over to sin, that i should
become a monster worthy of eternal death"

Post by Robert
So then why did something which was good kill us?

people were already in transgression and were
dying without any law in their midst

"sin" was "working death" in Paul, and he, under the
guidance of the law as a tutor and a nanny
says that he became -more- 'sinful'

even though, Paul says that he was "blameless"

==
Philippians 3:6

concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning
the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
==



Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth
in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no
good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is
present with me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind

sort of like a heroine addict rueing the day
he ever started chasing teh little red dragon around.

he may sit there and ponder to himself;

"i know in my mind that i would be better off not
injecting this dope in my arms, but the pull is
too strong and i cannot give it up on my own,
i need help"

now, "The Law" is -not- a shot of heroin given
to -make- one rob cheat and steal and do murder
and lie and become another God in your mind

no.

The Law continually sits there and keeps saying
that cheating and stealing and murdering and
lying and having another God is -killing- you
even after you've turned a totally deaf ear to -it-
in deference and favor to that shot you like so much.

and in one's mind, they may still be able to
comprehend that such behaviors are bad and bad
for them and killing them and not just others,
but the pull is too strong, can't walk away.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Under the Mosaic Law, forgives came by the Blood sacrifice for Sin,
every year, it forgave for the previous year, and covered you like an
insurance policy if you happened to die before your next sacrifice.

nonsense, this makes the law a liscence and this is precisely
why YHWH says that he does not delight in the blood of bulls
and goats, because -once- should have been enough if they had
taken is all to heart, but it was not the law that failed,
but the people who failed.


==
Isaiah 1:11-13;16-18

11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says YHWH. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats. 12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
;
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of
your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow. 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall
be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
===

and Israel was exposed to teh same spirit.

===
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that
all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through
the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and
in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all
drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that
spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for
their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent
that we should not desire after evil things as they also
desired. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of
them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat
and drink, and rose up to play.”
===

funny how Paul is saying that ancient Israel
is an example for those of this household of Faith
so as to not follow a bad example.

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law came with Blessings and Cursing's. Not one person who
was Jewish lived a sinless life, out side of Christ.

==
2 Samuel 22:23-25

23 For all His judgments were before me; And as for
His statutes, I did not depart from them. 24 I was
also blameless before Him, And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according
to my righteousness,According to my cleanness in His eyes.
==

==
Luke 1:5-7

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking
in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren,
and they were both well advanced in years.
==

"blameless"

Post by Robert
Israel could not attain to righteousness because they, like some
churches operate by works of the law and not by faith,

now how in the world can a people operate by works of the law
and become more sinful -because- of the same law?

some of them seemd to do as the nanny told them to do,
but harbored all sorts of ill -thinking- in their
minds against their fellows.

==
Matthew 23:25-26

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you
cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they
are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee,
first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that
the outside of them may be clean also.
==
Luke 11:39-40

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside
of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed
and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the
outside make the inside also?
==

"The Law" did =not= _make_ the "inside of the cup" filthy...

you have to realize that Paul is -not- saying that it did.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness,
hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it
were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Post by Robert
But it had nothing to do with your statement about
two distinct covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.

Robert says;

Post by Robert
That was not your original statement, nor your original premise. And
you never came to grips with Sinai and Jerusalem.

of course it does, i said Hagar was
a binding contract and not a slavery.

Jesus says that those were slaves
to 'sin' not slaves to the law;

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

Post by Robert

if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.

Are you mixing up bondage and slavery? as in
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

the 'slavery' is to 'sin' that 'law' which is at
work in the members of your body, the flesh.

Post by Robert
No one forced the Jew into the Mosaic Law, they, the Israelites all
voted on it after it was read to them, They signed on to the covenant
and pledged theyselves.

and that contract is a guarding tutor, a nanny
added because they were -already- transgressing,
in order to keep them in line until Christ appears.
Galatians 3:23-25


=how= can a tutor meant to bring one to Christ
educe in a man like Paul, -worse- behavior?

Paul said that "sin" =deceived= him

Paul does not say that the law placed sin in him
he says sin tricked him into rebelling against
the law that was meant as a good tutor to
bring him closer to God.

Post by Robert

if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

It was a mutual contract, ratified by the nation of Israel.

of course it was a mutual contract

and there was no "fine print" of which anyone was
not aware but which -caused- slavery to sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it

That "bound" is the bondage spoken of. Not the slavery you speak of.

well, at least you're getting closer to the truth.
yes, the binding nature of the agreement is that
to which Israel was bound,

and the slavery to 'sin' already exists
and people already die because of it.

Post by Robert

=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a

new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when

Post by Robert

I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."

They divorced him, first the ten tribes and then the rest later on.

the =fault= found was not in the contract and the law,

but in the people

Post by Robert

"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

In Christ were are freed from the law written in tablets of stone, and
he writes his new laws in our hearts of flesh.

what "new" laws?

==
Hebrews 8

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws in their mind and write them on
their hearts; and I will be their God, and they
shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach
his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,
‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from
the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins I will remember no more.”
==

God hasn't changed

==
Jeremiah 9:13

And the Lord said, “Because they have forsaken
My law which I set before them, and have not
obeyed My voice, nor walked according to it,
==

"My law" is still "My law"

you would say that God writes the
law of sin and death on 'our' hearts.

Post by Robert
The are more like the
desire of our hearts to do, out of and because of Love.

you say that the -written- "law" places sin and death in to people

now you'd be saying that God will place sin and death in to people
aside from a written law by direct spiritual interaction.

and such -is- silly and absurd.

[Timothy Sutter]

some of what this comes down to is

exposure to a shadowy veiled description of righteousness,
does not make one righteous, and hearing and speaking
about this 'law'-alone- is not 'praiseworthy' but
that "righteousness" is itself, active, even if
one's belief in the words God says, and that God
-is- who God says God is, may be accounted
as a righteous deed in itself.


furthermore, -not- stealing is =passive= and
isn't really a "work" at all.

same for all of the various "nots" [thou shalt =not= 'do']

to =not= do a thing is -passive- -not- a "work"

now God is not the author of confusion and God cannot lie
[1 Corinthians 14:33] [Titus 1:2]

so we may not suggest that God says "no" and means "yes"

but still, =not doing= is passive, not acting, not a 'work' at all.

now, there -are- _active_ 'works' prescribed by the law in
-response- to 'working an evil' or -doing- a wrong.

various sin offerings -are- 'works of the law'

they are active 'works' "do this"

but blood of bulls and goats do not seem to
cleanse conscience of unrighteousness [Hebrews 10]

=
Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings,
and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure
in them” (which are offered according to the law),
=

man is justified, not by the blood of bulls and goats,[works of the law]
but by Faith in the efficacy of =Christ's= shed blood.

did you receive the Spirit by the blood of bulls and
goats[works of the law] or by faith in Christ's shed blood?

-these- "works of the law" /blood of bulls and goats/
are superceded by the perfecting blood of Christ

does God supply the Spirit and work miracles
amongst you because of the blood of bulls and
goats or by hearing that Christ has come in
the flesh and shed -his- blood?


==
Hebrews 10

3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins
every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood
of bulls and goats could take away sins.
==

these "works of the law" remind people of
their sin, and are not cleansing their conscience

but God still says "be righteous and
just and holy" and this hasn't changed.


==
Isaiah 51:4;6-7;16

“Listen to Me, My people; And give ear to Me, O My nation:
For law will proceed from Me, And I will make My justice
rest As a light of the peoples. But My salvation will
be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished.

7 “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people
in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach
of men, Nor be afraid of their insults.

16 I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
==

"righteousness" and "My law" are
parallel and synonymous here.
one is exemplified by the other.

seems to be sort of a "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you" type of thing.


one does not become "righteous" nor "just" by
shedding the blood of a bull goat nor lamb.

neither does one necessarily become righteous nor
just by -not- stealing, or -not- doing a wrong
to someone else.

because Jesus says, [essentially] "to think it is to do it"

if you look at another man's wife with desires, 'adultery'
if you hate your neighbor, 'murder'

so, one could go their whole life never actually
killing stealing or adulterating, but yet, ...
but yet, having a conscience filled
with guile and artifice.

in other words, you can actively walk contrary to God even
if it doesn't show on the outside with a clean cup cleansed
but filled with unrighteousness.

but yet, not stealing is not a work at all...

shedding blood of goats and lambs and bulls, that's a work.


now, if one's innate unrighteousness has been remitted
according to Christ's own purpose, =what= is the outcome?


a "cloaked evil person?" of course not


how about a consciousness cleaned of 'sin' consciousness
and thereby freed to walk in the righteousness of God?

some of what this comes down to is

exposure to a shadowy description of righteousness,
does not make one righteous, and hearing and speaking
about this 'law'-alone- is not 'praiseworthy' but
that "righteousness" is itself, active, even if
one's belief in the words God says, and that God
-is- who God says God, is may be accounted
as a righteous deed in itself.

[tesla sTinker]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

no he does not have to.
he also needs to understand and so do you, That Jesus specifically
stated that He did not come to change the old law. Mosaic Law.
Which means, you are still under it. Yet you must walk in the spirit.
And that would mean, support to the old law.

Post by Timothy Sutter

But it had nothing to do with your statement about two distinct
covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.
if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.
if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it
=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when
I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."
"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

[Robert]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:40:06 -0700, tesla sTinker

Post by tesla sTinker

Post by Timothy Sutter
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

no he does not have to.
he also needs to understand and so do you, That Jesus specifically
stated that He did not come to change the old law. Mosaic Law.
Which means, you are still under it. Yet you must walk in the spirit.
And that would mean, support to the old law.

If you are under the law, you are under its bondage and therefore must
observe all of it, every last detail, the Sabbath, the High Holy Days,
the food observances, everything, and the curses of the law would
apply to you as well.

Jesus freed us from all that, from the tablets of Stone as well, his
law is written on our hearts of Flesh. Paul also speaks directly to
that.

To walk in the Spirit is to walk spiritually our spirit in sync with
the Spirit of God who dwells in the hearts of every born again
believer. Only the spirit of the reborn man is clean enough for him to
dwell therein. If you have not the spirit of God within you, you are
not of God, nor one of His. Romans 8:9

The Jew did not walk in the spirit.

[tesla sTinker]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

no he does not have to.
he also needs to understand and so do you, That Jesus specifically
stated that He did not come to change the old law. Mosaic Law.
Which means, you are still under it. Yet you must walk in the spirit.
And that would mean, support to the old law.

which would mean, you should retract your statement.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"

Post by Timothy Sutter
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"

well, that is not true at all what you wrote.

Post by Timothy Sutter

But it had nothing to do with your statement about two distinct
covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.
if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.
if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it
=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when
I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."
"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

[tesla sTinker]

fact is, if you did not have the old law, you would not know what sin
is. Which is exactly why, Jesus said it stays.

Post by tesla sTinker

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

no he does not have to.
he also needs to understand and so do you, That Jesus specifically
stated that He did not come to change the old law. Mosaic Law.
Which means, you are still under it. Yet you must walk in the spirit.
And that would mean, support to the old law.
which would mean, you should retract your statement.
Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"

Post by Timothy Sutter
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"

well, that is not true at all what you wrote.

Post by Timothy Sutter

But it had nothing to do with your statement about two distinct
covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.
if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.
if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it
=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when
I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."
"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by tesla sTinker
fact is, if you did not have the old law,
you would not know what sin is. Which is exactly why, Jesus said it stays.

not exactly, truth is, i wouldn't know what -God-
considered to be failure[sin] unless God told me
what God considered to be failure[sin]

because i could certainly develop a personal idea of
success and failure which categorized success as me
getting what i wanted or felt i needed and desired,
and categorized failure as me -not- getting what
i wanted or needed and desired,

even, if, i allowed myself to get what i wanted
at the expense of someone else who wanted
practically the same thing.

for instance, i could allow myself to cheat someone
else to get what i wanted, and consider this getting
what i wanted as a "success" and alos, if i found that
i was cheated by someone else, i could call this a
failure on my part, a "sin"

now, when i compare -=my= personal idea of success
and failure to God's idea of the same, we may find
that the two were hopelessly conflicted.


what we believe, is that God has, ultimately,
the only True sense of success and failure
which covers all parties involved.


this in part because God cannot derive a good thing
from anyone else that God des not already have and so,
God -cannot- gain by cheating and so, does
not cheat,,,etc.

now, all we have to do is see things

through the eyes of God...


\\\ etc. etc.etc.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Timothy Sutter
Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"

Post by Timothy Sutter
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"

well, that is not true at all what you wrote.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses Law of God...

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter
Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"

Post by Timothy Sutter
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"

well, that is not true at all what you wrote.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses Law of God...

The law brings forth sin, it magnifies sin.

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and
without shedding of blood is no remission.

There is no remission without blood, and no blood without death. The
Blood must be pure, from totally clean animals, they all had to fall
into a rigid standard. Sin-Death.

The Blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, was pure. In the veins of Jesus
flowed the blood of God. Blood makeup comes from the Fathers seed, not
the mother. There is no co-mingling of blood.


Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given
it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it
is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. 

Read all of Chapter 4- Death specified and required for sin, the
shedding of blood, required for sin. This is specified in the Mosaic
Law.

Lev 4:27  And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance,
while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD
concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 
Lev 4:28  Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge:
then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without
blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 
Lev 4:29  And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering,
and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 
Lev 4:30  And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his
finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and
shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

You say you believe in the word of God, then what do you with Romans
8:2? What does v 3 tell you

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death. 
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter
Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"

Post by Timothy Sutter
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"

well, that is not true at all what you wrote.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses Law of God...

The law brings forth sin, it magnifies sin.
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==

Post by Robert
Here you can see that Paul in verse 5 that the motions of sin, which
were by the Law, meaning Mosaic Law brings forth Death.
Sin and Death.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him
who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto
God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which
were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
death.

==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

Post by Robert
Paul reiterates the point that it was the Law that made sin evident.
And without the Law, there was no sin.

people are sinning and dying without the law,
there is sin and there is death from Adam to Moses.

==
Galatians 3:18-20

19 What purpose then does the law serve?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
==

clearly "transgressions" exist prior to the law,
just as "sin" existed prior to the law, and one
could even equate the two, "transgression = sin"

an agreement that was clearly temporary,
but nonetheless, -not- "sin" itself.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Again, sin and death by the Law

no, the law is a tutor and a guard to keep the people
from wandering too far away -in- to 'sin' and from
their goal which is Christ;

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good.

sin deceived him, Paul practically sounds like Eve;

"the serpent tricked me, and i ate"

Paul says; "=sin= _tricked_ me, and i transgressed further"

Paul does not say;

"the law delivered me over to sin, that i should
become a monster worthy of eternal death"

Post by Robert
So then why did something which was good kill us?

people were already in transgression and were
dying without any law in their midst

"sin" was "working death" in Paul, and he, under the
guidance of the law as a tutor and a nanny
says that he became -more- 'sinful'

even though, Paul says that he was "blameless"

==
Philippians 3:6

concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning
the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
==



Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth
in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no
good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is
present with me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind

sort of like a heroine addict rueing the day
he ever started chasing teh little red dragon around.

he may sit there and ponder to himself;

"i know in my mind that i would be better off not
injecting this dope in my arms, but the pull is
too strong and i cannot give it up on my own,
i need help"

now, "The Law" is -not- a shot of heroin given
to -make- one rob cheat and steal and do murder
and lie and become another God in your mind

no.

The Law continually sits there and keeps saying
that cheating and stealing and murdering and
lying and having another God is -killing- you
even after you've turned a totally deaf ear to -it-
in deference and favor to that shot you like so much.

and in one's mind, they may still be able to
comprehend that such behaviors are bad and bad
for them and killing them and not just others,
but the pull is too strong, can't walk away.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Under the Mosaic Law, forgives came by the Blood sacrifice for Sin,
every year, it forgave for the previous year, and covered you like an
insurance policy if you happened to die before your next sacrifice.

nonsense, this makes the law a liscence and this is precisely
why YHWH says that he does not delight in the blood of bulls
and goats, because -once- should have been enough if they had
taken is all to heart, but it was not the law that failed,
but the people who failed.


==
Isaiah 1:11-13;16-18

11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says YHWH. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats. 12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
;
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of
your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow. 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall
be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
===

and Israel was exposed to teh same spirit.

===
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that
all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through
the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and
in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all
drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that
spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for
their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent
that we should not desire after evil things as they also
desired. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of
them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat
and drink, and rose up to play.”
===

funny how Paul is saying that ancient Israel
is an example for those of this household of Faith
so as to not follow a bad example.

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law came with Blessings and Cursing's. Not one person who
was Jewish lived a sinless life, out side of Christ.

==
2 Samuel 22:23-25

23 For all His judgments were before me; And as for
His statutes, I did not depart from them. 24 I was
also blameless before Him, And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according
to my righteousness,According to my cleanness in His eyes.
==

==
Luke 1:5-7

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking
in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren,
and they were both well advanced in years.
==

"blameless"

Post by Robert
Israel could not attain to righteousness because they, like some
churches operate by works of the law and not by faith,

now how in the world can a people operate by works of the law
and become more sinful -because- of the same law?

some of them seemd to do as the nanny told them to do,
but harbored all sorts of ill -thinking- in their
minds against their fellows.

==
Matthew 23:25-26

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you
cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they
are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee,
first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that
the outside of them may be clean also.
==
Luke 11:39-40

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside
of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed
and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the
outside make the inside also?
==

"The Law" did =not= _make_ the "inside of the cup" filthy...

you have to realize that Paul is -not- saying that it did.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness,
hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it
were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter
But it had nothing to do with your statement about
two distinct covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.

Robert says;

Post by Robert
That was not your original statement, nor your original premise. And
you never came to grips with Sinai and Jerusalem.

of course it does, i said Hagar was
a binding contract and not a slavery.

Jesus says that those were slaves
to 'sin' not slaves to the law;

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.

Are you mixing up bondage and slavery? as in
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

the 'slavery' is to 'sin' that 'law' which is at
work in the members of your body, the flesh.

Post by Robert
No one forced the Jew into the Mosaic Law, they, the Israelites all
voted on it after it was read to them, They signed on to the covenant
and pledged theyselves.

and that contract is a guarding tutor, a nanny
added because they were -already- transgressing,
in order to keep them in line until Christ appears.
Galatians 3:23-25


=how= can a tutor meant to bring one to Christ
educe in a man like Paul, -worse- behavior?

Paul said that "sin" =deceived= him

Paul does not say that the law placed sin in him
he says sin tricked him into rebelling against
the law that was meant as a good tutor to
bring him closer to God.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

It was a mutual contract, ratified by the nation of Israel.

of course it was a mutual contract

and there was no "fine print" of which anyone was
not aware but which -caused- slavery to sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter
This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it

That "bound" is the bondage spoken of. Not the slavery you speak of.

well, at least you're getting closer to the truth.
yes, the binding nature of the agreement is that
to which Israel was bound,

and the slavery to 'sin' already exists
and people already die because of it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a

new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."

They divorced him, first the ten tribes and then the rest later on.

the =fault= found was not in the contract and the law,

but in the people

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

In Christ were are freed from the law written in tablets of stone, and
he writes his new laws in our hearts of flesh.

what "new" laws?

==
Hebrews 8

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws in their mind and write them on
their hearts; and I will be their God, and they
shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach
his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,
‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from
the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins I will remember no more.”
==

God hasn't changed

==
Jeremiah 9:13

And the Lord said, “Because they have forsaken
My law which I set before them, and have not
obeyed My voice, nor walked according to it,
==

"My law" is still "My law"

you would say that God writes the
law of sin and death on 'our' hearts.

Post by Robert
The are more like the
desire of our hearts to do, out of and because of Love.

you say that the -written- "law" places sin and death in to people

now you'd be saying that God will place sin and death in to people
aside from a written law by direct spiritual interaction.

and such -is- silly and absurd.

Post by Robert
Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and
without shedding of blood is no remission.
There is no remission without blood, and no blood without death. The
Blood must be pure, from totally clean animals, they all had to fall
into a rigid standard. Sin-Death.
The Blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, was pure. In the veins of Jesus
flowed the blood of God. Blood makeup comes from the Fathers seed, not
the mother. There is no co-mingling of blood.
Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given
it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it
is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Read all of Chapter 4- Death specified and required for sin, the
shedding of blood, required for sin. This is specified in the Mosaic
Law.
Lev 4:27  And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance,
while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD
concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without
blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:29  And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering,
and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
Lev 4:30  And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his
finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and
shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
You say you believe in the word of God, then what do you with Romans
8:2? What does v 3 tell you
Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,

now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.


you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]

[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]

[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit

[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body

[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.


now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]

Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3

but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.

never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2

nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.

staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.


==
Romans 8:1-8

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh[2], but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.

For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:

He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].

For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===



===
Romans 7:21-25

I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?

I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===

here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.

a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]

and God's Law.[3=>1]

the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].

remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.

==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==

the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.

==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==

any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.

the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,

the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.

now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.

no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.

and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.

etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.



some of what this comes down to is

exposure to a shadowy veiled description of righteousness,
does not make one righteous, and hearing and speaking
about this 'law'-alone- is not 'praiseworthy' but
that "righteousness" is itself, active, even if
one's belief in the words God says, and that God
-is- who God says God is, may be accounted
as a righteous deed in itself.


furthermore, -not- stealing is =passive= and
isn't really a "work" at all.

same for all of the various "nots" [thou shalt =not= 'do']

to =not= do a thing is -passive- -not- a "work"

now God is not the author of confusion and God cannot lie
[1 Corinthians 14:33] [Titus 1:2]

so we may not suggest that God says "no" and means "yes"

but still, =not doing= is passive, not acting, not a 'work' at all.

now, there -are- _active_ 'works' prescribed by the law in
-response- to 'working an evil' or -doing- a wrong.

various sin offerings -are- 'works of the law'

they are active 'works' "do this"

but blood of bulls and goats do not seem to
cleanse conscience of unrighteousness [Hebrews 10]

=
Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings,
and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure
in them” (which are offered according to the law),
=

man is justified, not by the blood of bulls and goats,[works of the law]
but by Faith in the efficacy of =Christ's= shed blood.

did you receive the Spirit by the blood of bulls and
goats[works of the law] or by faith in Christ's shed blood?

-these- "works of the law" /blood of bulls and goats/
are superceded by the perfecting blood of Christ

does God supply the Spirit and work miracles
amongst you because of the blood of bulls and
goats or by hearing that Christ has come in
the flesh and shed -his- blood?


==
Hebrews 10

3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins
every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood
of bulls and goats could take away sins.
==

these "works of the law" remind people of
their sin, and are not cleansing their conscience

but God still says "be righteous and
just and holy" and this hasn't changed.


==
Isaiah 51:4;6-7;16

“Listen to Me, My people; And give ear to Me, O My nation:
For law will proceed from Me, And I will make My justice
rest As a light of the peoples. But My salvation will
be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished.

7 “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people
in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach
of men, Nor be afraid of their insults.

16 I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
==

"righteousness" and "My law" are
parallel and synonymous here.
one is exemplified by the other.

seems to be sort of a "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you" type of thing.


one does not become "righteous" nor "just" by
shedding the blood of a bull goat nor lamb.

neither does one necessarily become righteous nor
just by -not- stealing, or -not- doing a wrong
to someone else.

because Jesus says, [essentially] "to think it is to do it"

if you look at another man's wife with desires, 'adultery'
if you hate your neighbor, 'murder'

so, one could go their whole life never actually
killing stealing or adulterating, but yet, ...
but yet, having a conscience filled
with guile and artifice.

in other words, you can actively walk contrary to God even
if it doesn't show on the outside with a clean cup cleansed
but filled with unrighteousness.

but yet, not stealing is not a work at all...

shedding blood of goats and lambs and bulls, that's a work.


now, if one's innate unrighteousness has been remitted
according to Christ's own purpose, =what= is the outcome?


a "cloaked evil person?" of course not


how about a consciousness cleaned of 'sin' consciousness
and thereby freed to walk in the righteousness of God?

some of what this comes down to is

exposure to a shadowy description of righteousness,
does not make one righteous, and hearing and speaking
about this 'law'-alone- is not 'praiseworthy' but
that "righteousness" is itself, active, even if
one's belief in the words God says, and that God
-is- who God says God, is may be accounted
as a righteous deed in itself.

[Timothy Sutter]

=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"

when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.""" [James 1:13]


Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

here's Jesus quoting Moses and saying
that man shall live by the word of God.

he doesn't say man shall live by
the law of sin and death...

==
Matthew 4:4

But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but
by every word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.’”
=
Luke 4:4

But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by
every word of God.’”
=
Deuteronomy 8:3

So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you
with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers
know, that He might make you know that man shall not
live by bread alone; but man lives by every word
that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
==


here Paul, contrasts the law and
faith according -to- the law

==
Romans 10 5

For Moses writes about the righteousness which
is of the law, “The man who does those things
shall live by them.
=
Leviticus 18:5

You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments,
which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
==

he cites 'the law' and says that one would 'live' by them.

not that the law draws man further and further
in to darkness and death.

law of God is -not- law of sin and death.



and below, Paul -cites- _Moses_ to explain 'faith'
==
Romans 10:6-8

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”
(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who
will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”
=
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very near you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it.
==

Paul says that the word, 'the law', is
near you that you may do it, by faith.

not and never that the law is there
to draw you in to darkness and kill you.

no,

James clearly explains what Paul means ;

==
James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==


now, it should be clear, that, this;

when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""

=IS= "the law of sin and death" ....

Paul just has an awkward way of expressing =this=.

James and the elders all call Paul a "brother" [Acts 21:21-20]

etc

no,


=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"

when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""

or as Paul would say;

"=another= law working in my body"...

==
Romans 7:23

But I see another law in my members, warring against
the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members.
==

[Timothy Sutter]

James clearly explains what Paul means;
==
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==
now, it should be clear, that, this;
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""
=IS= "the law of sin and death"  ....
Paul just has an awkward way of expressing =this=.
James and the elders all call Paul a "brother"  [Acts 21:21-20]

===
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and
the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows
in their trouble, and to keep oneself
unspotted from the world.
=
1 Timothy 5:3-4
Honor widows who are really widows.
But if any widow has children or grandchildren,
let them first learn to show piety at home and
to repay their parents; for this is good
and acceptable before God.
=
Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except
in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
the world has been crucified to me,
and I to the world.
=
Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who
seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace
that had been given to me, they gave me
and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship,
that we should go to the Gentiles and they
to the circumcised. They desired only that
we should remember the poor, the very thing
which I also was eager to do.
===


James' "pure religion" is exactly found in Paul's...

=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""
or as Paul would say;
"=another= law working in my body"...
==
Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against
the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members.
==

[Timothy Sutter]

===
2 Peter 3

3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which
I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful
of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of
the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,

<...>

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent
to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and
consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also
our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him,
has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in
them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction,
as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest
you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the
error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
===


Moses is a prophet, a "holy Prophet" even...

so, Peter must be including Moses in stirring up
people's 'pure' minds by way of reminder about.


===
Numbers 11:29
Then Moses said to him, “Are you zealous for my sake? Oh,
that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the
Lord would put His Spirit upon them!”
=
Deuteronomy 18:15

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me
from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
=
Deuteronomy 34:10
But since then there has not arisen in Israel
a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
===


Peter identifies the slavery to corruption,

and not to the Law.


===
2 Peter 2

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they
allure through the desires of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones
who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While
they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption;
for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into
bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the
world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is
worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better
for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having
known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb:
“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed,
to her wallowing in the mire.”
===


Paul says similar things, and Peter even admires the "wisdom"
which Paul exhibits, but only warns that unstable people can
twist and contort Paul to their own destruction.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Timothy Sutter
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.""" [James 1:13]
Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

i just wanted to mention here, that, in Romans,
Paul starts speaking, and he says this;


==
Romans 3:5

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God,
what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)
==

the part i emphasize here, is, "I Speak as a Man"

which is why in another place i left the option that in
some of this, Paul is giving a personal testimonial
statement as a man which includes his life as Saul.

which is why it is a bit awkwardly roundabout...

just look at James 1:13 and say, "the law of sin and death"

and it should clarfy Paul somewhat in Romans.



i have some things to attend to, ...

i'll be back.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.""" [James 1:13]

To begin with that is James 1:15.
Secondly this is speaking of a born again person who sins and the
continuously sins it will bring forth death from which there is no
turning back and then is eternal death. You will not find this as a
"law". It is not even a rule, it is an action committed by the person
of their own free will and would vary from person to person, there is
no 10 strikes and you are out, or 5, or 30, 44, etc.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

No Paul doesn't and neither does James who wrote it. It is a product
of your own confusion being unable to separate the Old Covenant from
the New.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death. 
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 

The spirit of life did not dwell in all those who followed the Old
Covenant. They lived by works.

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's Jesus quoting Moses and saying
that man shall live by the word of God.
he doesn't say man shall live by
the law of sin and death...

First off, the Law of sin and death was solely for the Jew and or
those who joined with them. Otherwise they were not under the law.
Secondly Jesus was living life under the law and fulfilling ALL the
Law so that mankind would be made free from it and a works based
religion construed with blood sacrifices, rites, and rotes, as well as
the curse of the Law of Moses.

If you lived by the Mosaic Law then you are under its curses, and the
bondage of following every item in it.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but
by every word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.’”
=
Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by
every word of God.’”
=
Deuteronomy 8:3
So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you
with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers
know, that He might make you know that man shall not
live by bread alone; but man lives by every word
that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
==

Yes, Jesus said that, and how did it work out for the Israelite? Did
they learn it or did they complain about it, even demanding meat and
not just get the manna? Yes, God wanted men to live differently then
they were, but the Jew was having none of it. They told Moses to deal
with God, they were fearful and afraid. What God desired for them they
were opposed to.

Post by Timothy Sutter
here Paul, contrasts the law and
faith according -to- the law
==
Romans 10 5
For Moses writes about the righteousness which
is of the law, “The man who does those things
shall live by them.
=
Leviticus 18:5
You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments,
which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
==
he cites 'the law' and says that one would 'live' by them.
not that the law draws man further and further
in to darkness and death.
law of God is -not- law of sin and death.

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The law shines the light on sin, makes it visible.
Rom 7:8  But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express
itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of
forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is
dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing].  [AMPC]

Post by Timothy Sutter
and below, Paul -cites- _Moses_ to explain 'faith'

Rom 10:5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,
That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 

You misread the text. The above is what Paul said about Moses

Rom 10:6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this
wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is,
to bring Christ down from above:) 

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 10:6-8
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”
(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who
will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”
=
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very near you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it.
==
Paul says that the word, 'the law', is
near you that you may do it, by faith.
not and never that the law is there
to draw you in to darkness and kill you.

Rom 10:6  But the righteousness based on faith [imputed by God and
bringing right relationship with Him] says, Do not say in your heart,
Who will ascend into Heaven? that is, to bring Christ down; 
Rom 10:7  Or who will descend into the abyss? that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead [as if we could be saved by our own efforts].
[Deu_30:12-13] 
Rom 10:8  But what does it say? The Word (God's message in Christ) is
near you, on your lips and in your heart; that is, the Word (the
message, the basis and object) of faith which we preach, [Deu_30:14] 
Rom 10:9  Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that
Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely
on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts
in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous,
acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly
and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation. 

Read the above, see if it doesn't clarify your confusion. Abraham,
without the law, lived by faith. Moses understood Faith and also knew
that the law condemned. It would have driven the wise man to his
knee's with the full realization that he couldn't possibly fulfill all
the law, that he was born with a sin nature, and that he should have
turned to God for his deliverance. Everything in the law pointed to
Jesus. The Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.

You see, in verses 9 and 10 it is very clear that the law of Moses did
not save anyone. That Christ is the Saviour.

You confuse the covenants, their purposes, and you need Christ IN your
heart. He will make you the temple of God in your spirit. As clean as
the Holy of Holies wherein you would have direct access to God the
Father through Jesus Christ. Not once a year like the High Priest had,
and then only after blood Sacrifices for him and one also for the
people. An annual atonement of Blood, through Jesus and his one time
sacrifice and his sprinkling his blood on the ark of the covenant in
heaven, one time for the sins of all men who receive him, we now have
access every moment of the day.

you appear to refuse the words that you do not understand, and it
therefore stifles your knowledge and understanding. Which is one of
the main reasons I asked you to slow down and meditate on the word of
God.

You haven't and appear to be hell bent on drawing conclusions with
insufficient knowledge.

Post by Timothy Sutter
no,
James clearly explains what Paul means ;
==
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==
now, it should be clear, that, this;
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""
=IS= "the law of sin and death" ....

I addressed this at the beginning of your post here.

I will reiterate by saying, there is no such law.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul just has an awkward way of expressing =this=.
James and the elders all call Paul a "brother" [Acts 21:21-20]
etc
no,
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""
or as Paul would say;
"=another= law working in my body"...

No, you are incorrect. James is describing the actions of a brother in
Christ who turns away from Christ to follow sin in full bloom and as a
result renounces his salvation.

Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
by the law, and then he died to God.

James is speaking of a person who already knows what sin is.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against
the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members.
==

It might help you to understand the concept of the age of
accountability here.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
==
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==

To begin with that is James 1:15.
Secondly this is speaking of a born again person who sins and the
continuously sins it will bring forth death from which there is no
turning back and then is eternal death.

"Let =no one= say, “I am tempted by God”
and this certainly applies to Paul, therefore,
Paul -cannot- be saying that he is tempted
in to 'sin' -by- God's Law.

Paul repeatedly says that the slavery is to -sin-

===
Romans 6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the
body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be
slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under
grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present
yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading
to righteousness?
===
Romans 7

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===
romans 8

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that
it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the
flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled
in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the
things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the
things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be
spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is
enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor
indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are
in the flesh cannot please God.
===


Paul says that the law is good and holy, not a slavery.

==
Romans 7:12

Therefore the law is holy,
and the commandment holy and just and good.
=
Romans 7:13
Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not!
But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death
in me through what is good, so that sin through the
commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
=
Romans 7:16

If, then, I do what I will not to do,
I agree with the law that it is good.
==

the flesh is enslved to its dictates
and the law points this out.

Post by Robert
You will not find this as a
"law". It is not even a rule, it is an action committed by the person
of their own free will and would vary from person to person, there is
no 10 strikes and you are out, or 5, or 30, 44, etc.

it is precisely what Paul says when he describes "another law"
at work in his body which is contrary -to- teh Law of God.

==
Romans 7
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my body, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members.
==

this; "another law" is

==
James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

No Paul doesn't and neither does James who wrote it. It is a product
of your own confusion being unable to separate the Old Covenant from
the New.

==
Hebrews 10
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,
says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds
I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless
deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of
these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
==

as you would have it, God will wtite the
law of sin and death upon the people.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
The spirit of life did not dwell in all those who followed the Old
Covenant. They lived by works.

these had faith and worked righteousness;

==
Hebrews 11

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for
seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who
did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of
Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel
and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked
righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword,
out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned
to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their
dead raised to life again.
==

and don't stop short of teh righteous requirement of the law;

Romans 8: 4

"that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled"

the law has a righteous requirement, and that hasn't changed.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's Jesus quoting Moses and saying
that man shall live by the word of God.
he doesn't say man shall live by
the law of sin and death...

First off, the Law of sin and death was solely for the Jew and or
those who joined with them. Otherwise they were not under the law.

shall not live by bread alone, but -shall live- by the word of God.

Post by Robert
Secondly Jesus was living life under the law and fulfilling ALL the
Law so that mankind would be made free from it and a works based
religion construed with blood sacrifices, rites, and rotes, as well as
the curse of the Law of Moses.

don't forget, Jesus pronounces some "woes"

Luke 6:24-26
“But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh
now, For you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak
well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.


and no, Jesus says that the people were
slaves to -sin- and not to the law.

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

Post by Robert
If you lived by the Mosaic Law then you are under its curses, and the
bondage of following every item in it.

and if you claim to have the Law of God imprinted upon
your mind and heart, what of it is so appalling to you?

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but
by every word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.’”
=
Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by
every word of God.’”
=
Deuteronomy 8:3
So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you
with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers
know, that He might make you know that man shall not
live by bread alone; but man lives by every word
that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
==

Yes, Jesus said that, and how did it work out for the Israelite? Did
they learn it or did they complain about it, even demanding meat and
not just get the manna? Yes, God wanted men to live differently then
they were, but the Jew was having none of it. They told Moses to deal
with God, they were fearful and afraid. What God desired for them they
were opposed to.

but you say that God wanted them to abide in sin and death
you say that what Moses wrote about, Jesus, is slavery.

==
John 5:45-46
Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father;
there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me;
for he wrote about Me.
==

don't you say that Jesus is the Word of God made fleah?

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
here Paul, contrasts the law and
faith according -to- the law
==
Romans 10 5
For Moses writes about the righteousness which
is of the law, “The man who does those things
shall live by them.
=
Leviticus 18:5
You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments,
which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
==
he cites 'the law' and says that one would 'live' by them.
not that the law draws man further and further
in to darkness and death.
law of God is -not- law of sin and death.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The law shines the light on sin, makes it visible.
Rom 7:8 But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express
itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of
forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is
dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing]. [AMPC]

slavery to -sin- not slavery to law.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and below, Paul -cites- _Moses_ to explain 'faith'

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,
That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
You misread the text. The above is what Paul said about Moses

it says the man that does them shall live by them.

very simple

Post by Robert
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this
wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is,
to bring Christ down from above:)

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 10:6-8
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”
(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who
will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”
=
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very near you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it.
==
Paul says that the word, 'the law', is
near you that you may do it, by faith.
not and never that the law is there
to draw you in to darkness and kill you.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith [imputed by God and
bringing right relationship with Him] says, Do not say in your heart,
Who will ascend into Heaven? that is, to bring Christ down;
Rom 10:7 Or who will descend into the abyss? that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead [as if we could be saved by our own efforts].
[Deu_30:12-13]
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? The Word (God's message in Christ) is
near you, on your lips and in your heart; that is, the Word (the
message, the basis and object) of faith which we preach, [Deu_30:14]
Rom 10:9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that
Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely
on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts
in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous,
acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly
and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.
Read the above, see if it doesn't clarify your confusion. Abraham,
without the law, lived by faith. Moses understood Faith and also knew
that the law condemned. It would have driven the wise man to his
knee's with the full realization that he couldn't possibly fulfill all
the law, that he was born with a sin nature, and that he should have
turned to God for his deliverance. Everything in the law pointed to
Jesus. The Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Post by Robert
You see, in verses 9 and 10 it is very clear that the law of Moses did
not save anyone. That Christ is the Saviour.

not saving and being a slavery are two entirely different things

==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==


you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.


sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.


james 2

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

=
1 Timothy

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,
from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some,
having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be
teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the
things which they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good if
one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made
for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate
===


"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,
from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,"

[Robert]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
==
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==

To begin with that is James 1:15.
Secondly this is speaking of a born again person who sins and the
continuously sins it will bring forth death from which there is no
turning back and then is eternal death.

"Let =no one= say, “I am tempted by God”
and this certainly applies to Paul, therefore,
Paul -cannot- be saying that he is tempted
in to 'sin' -by- God's Law.
Paul repeatedly says that the slavery is to -sin-

Gal 4:1  Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not
differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 

Gal 4:5  to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive
the adoption as sons. 
Gal 4:6  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of
His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 
Gal 4:7  Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son,
then an heir of God through Christ. 

===
Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the
body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be
slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under
grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present
yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading
to righteousness?
===

Sin that dwells within is amplified by the Law of Moses.

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But
where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 

Paul says that the law is good and holy, not a slavery.

No, He never mentioned slavery there.
Rom 7:9  I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment
came, sin revived and I died. 
Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to
bring death. 
Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it killed me.

Just what does that say? When the commandment came sin was made alive
and I died.

==
Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy,
and the commandment holy and just and good.
=
Romans 7:13
Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not!
But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death
in me through what is good, so that sin through the
commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Sin was amplified by the bible, made the person exceedingly sinful.
"so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful."
 

Post by Robert
You will not find this as a
"law". It is not even a rule, it is an action committed by the person
of their own free will and would vary from person to person, there is
no 10 strikes and you are out, or 5, or 30, 44, etc.

it is precisely what Paul says when he describes "another law"
at work in his body which is contrary -to- teh Law of God.

The law teaches that one strike and you are out. Guilty of one, Guilty
of all.

==
James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==

That verse as I mentioned is written to the born again believer who
continues wilfully in sin, they die again and are no longer able to be
saved.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

No Paul doesn't and neither does James who wrote it. It is a product
of your own confusion being unable to separate the Old Covenant from
the New.

==
Hebrews 10
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,
says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds
I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless
deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of
these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
==
as you would have it, God will wtite the
law of sin and death upon the people.

That is your misperception.

When a person is born again they are made the righteousness of God by
His Grace and Mercy. No one can be more righteous than that. This
righteousness is in our born again spirit and is a part of our new
makeup. God's law is written in our hearts, and not the Mosaic Law. It
is witten there so that we will not sin against him when one walks in
the spirit. The Holy Spirit of God dwells in the born again spirit of
man, whose spirit is sealed by God. The one part of us that is perfect
while we live on this earth. The only part of us, but it is 1/3rd of
who we are. Our mind with our spirit is the heart of man, and our mind
is the interface between our spirit and flesh. Yet if your mind sides
with the flesh and yields to its lusts you will sin but if to the Born
Again spirit it will not sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
The spirit of life did not dwell in all those who followed the Old
Covenant. They lived by works.

these had faith and worked righteousness;

To what avail? All their works were as filthy rags, what faith were
they working? They were doing the works of the law, self
justification, earned by their deeds. Not the righteousness of God
which comes by faith in Jesus Christ. They believed, or had faith, in
the blood sacrifice as a symbol of that which was to come. And this
they had to do year after year after year.

They were never reborn. The law never made them righteous.

Read Romans 8:2,3 above, the law was weak.

==
Hebrews 11
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for
seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who
did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of
Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel
and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked
righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword,
out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned
to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their
dead raised to life again.
==

Do you not see the differences there between the works of the law and
Faith? Did the law subdue Kingdoms? Was Rahab a whore and a Gentile
under the law? Or did she simply believe? The walls of Jericho came
down not because of the law, but because the people believed the
prophets who spoke what God told them to say.

and don't stop short of teh righteous requirement of the law;
Romans 8: 4
"that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled"
the law has a righteous requirement, and that hasn't changed.

Why then didn't you read the whole verse and apply it?
Rom 8:4  that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled
in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the
Spirit. 

How is the righteousness fulfilled? " fulfilled in us who do not walk
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Only the Born
Again believer has the spirit of God inside of each and every one of
them. It was not so with the Jew who walked carnally.


Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit,
the things of the Spirit. 
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace. 

Those under the Mosaic Law were not spiritually minded. This is why
the law spelled out how they were to live and do things. Why they had
rites and rotes.

To be healed they needed to go the High Priest.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's Jesus quoting Moses and saying
that man shall live by the word of God.
he doesn't say man shall live by
the law of sin and death...

First off, the Law of sin and death was solely for the Jew and or
those who joined with them. Otherwise they were not under the law.

shall not live by bread alone, but -shall live- by the word of God.

Of course and according to the covenant they live under.

Post by Robert
Secondly Jesus was living life under the law and fulfilling ALL the
Law so that mankind would be made free from it and a works based
religion construed with blood sacrifices, rites, and rotes, as well as
the curse of the Law of Moses.

don't forget, Jesus pronounces some "woes"

He did not condemn them to woe, couldn't have without breaking his
word that he came not to condemn, so have you any idea what he meant
by saying that? Might it not be that it is harder for a rich man to
get into heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of the needle?
Think about it.

Luke 6:24-26
“But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh
now, For you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak
well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.
and no, Jesus says that the people were
slaves to -sin- and not to the law.

Where?

Do I need to remind you that Jesus, living under the law, was speaking
to a people that were also under the law? The Mosaic law.

==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

Post by Robert
If you lived by the Mosaic Law then you are under its curses, and the
bondage of following every item in it.

and if you claim to have the Law of God imprinted upon
your mind and heart, what of it is so appalling to you?

From what do you glean that idea or concept? Certainly not from
anything I have said. You are the one who confuses laws and Covenants.
Peoples, times and places. God is NOT the author of confusion.

Until you can get a grasp on these things you will have confusion.

I would suggest to you that you consider being Born Again as Jesus has
taught. Then and only then can the Spirit of God can lead you into all
truth.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
==
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==

To begin with that is James 1:15.
Secondly this is speaking of a born again person who sins and the
continuously sins it will bring forth death from which there is no
turning back and then is eternal death.

"Let =no one= say, “I am tempted by God”
and this certainly applies to Paul, therefore,
Paul -cannot- be saying that he is tempted
in to 'sin' -by- God's Law.
Paul repeatedly says that the slavery is to -sin-

Gal 4:1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not
differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive
the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of
His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Gal 4:7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son,
then an heir of God through Christ.

slavery to sin, not the law.

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.



==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==


you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Timothy Sutter
===
Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the
body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be
slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under
grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present
yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading
to righteousness?
===

Sin that dwells within is amplified by the Law of Moses.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But
where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

Jews and greeks, both with the law and
without the law are under 'sin'

==
Romans 3

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously
charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
<...>
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the
Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will
justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not!
On the contrary, we establish the law.
===

by faith the law is established, the law
was not the problem in the first place.
it's very simple and not at all confusing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul says that the law is good and holy, not a slavery.

No, He never mentioned slavery there.
Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment
came, sin revived and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to
bring death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it killed me.
Just what does that say? When the commandment came sin was made alive
and I died.

'sin' is alive in those without the law as well,
and they die because of it.


""For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks
that they are all under sin.""


=
Romans 7:12

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
=

the law is good, it's the sinful flesh that
falls short of the glory of God.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy,
and the commandment holy and just and good.
=
Romans 7:13
Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not!
But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death
in me through what is good, so that sin through the
commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Sin was amplified by the bible, made the person exceedingly sinful.
"so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful."

=
Deuteronomy 9:4-6<..>

Therefore understand that the Lord your God is
not giving you this good land to possess because
of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.
=
Deuteronomy:10

12 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you,
but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to
love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and
with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments of the
Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good?
=

i wonder why YHWH doesn't say that the commands that
were given were designed to make the people worse, but
instead claims that they were for the people's good.

already seems to know that the people were stiffnecked
and that they had no righteousness of their own that
was pleasing and that's why YHWH dispossessed the 'wicked'
that were already in the land so as to give it to
the people of Israel.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You will not find this as a
"law". It is not even a rule, it is an action committed by the person
of their own free will and would vary from person to person, there is
no 10 strikes and you are out, or 5, or 30, 44, etc.

it is precisely what Paul says when he describes "another law"
at work in his body which is contrary -to- teh Law of God.

The law teaches that one strike and you are out. Guilty of one, Guilty
of all.

you seemed to understand the difference between
shagagah and ruhm earlier in this thread.

==
Numbers 15:22-31

"'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands
YHWH gave Moses any of YHWH's commands to you through him, from
the day YHWH gave them and continuing through the generations to come
and if this is done unintentionally without the community being
aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull
for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to YHWH, along with its
prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat
for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole
Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not
intentional and they have brought to YHWH for their wrong an
offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite
community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven,
because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.

"'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring
a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to
make atonement before YHWH for the one who erred by sinning
unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him,
he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone
who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite
or an alien.


"'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born (ruwm)
or alien, blasphemes YHWH, and that person must be
cut off from his people. Because he has despised
YHWH's word and broken his commands, that person must
surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.' "
==

and then we turn to the prophet;

==
Ezekiel 18:1-30

The word of YHWH came to me:
"What do you people mean by quoting
this proverb about the land of Israel:

"'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign YHWH,
you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
For every living soul belongs to me, the father
as well as the son both alike belong to me.
The soul who sins is the one who will die."

"Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

<chorus>
He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign YehFeh.
</chorus>

<...>

"Suppose he has a violent son, who
sheds blood or does any of these
other things (though the father
has done none of them):

<...11-13 chorus...>

Will such a man live? He will not!
Because he has done all these detestable
things, he will surely be put to death
and his blood will be on his own head.


"But suppose this son has a son who
sees all the sins his father commits,
and though he sees them, he does not
do such things:

<...15-17 chorus...>

He will not die for his father's sin;
he will surely live. But his father
will die for his own sin, because he
practiced extortion, robbed his brother
and did what was wrong among his people.



"Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share
the guilt of his father?' Since the son
has done what is just and right and has
been careful to keep all my decrees,
he will surely live.

The soul who sins is the one who will die.
The son will not share the guilt of the father,
nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous man will be
credited to him, and the wickedness
of the wicked will be charged against him.


<<<<now; the big key element>>>>


"But if a wicked man turns away from all
the sins he has committed and keeps all
my decrees and does what is just and right,
he will surely live; he will not die.

None of the offenses he has committed
will be remembered against him. Because
of the righteous things he has done,
he will live.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?
declares the Sovereign YHWH. Rather, am I not
pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
==

to notice first, the people have had
the Law read to them, and they all
agree to carry it out, [exodus 19:7-9]

and we see a stipulation;

[Numbers 15:22-31] also see Leviticus 4

that maintains that an individual or a crowd
can transgress this law "unintentionally"
or by 'accident' and be forgiven,
and not stoned.

shagagah (in ignorance) as opposed to ruwm (presumtuously)

and we see that this is so, because in Ezekiel 18
YHWH says in no uncertain terms that a 'wicked' man,
-can- 'turn from his wickedness' and be forgiven and
his sins remembered no more.

and one of the 'sins' enumerated -is-
a death penalty sin, "adultery"

now, obviously, if a man, who is an adulterer,
-can- turn from his ways and 'see the light'
as it were, then he -obviously- was -not-
to -be- stoned to death on first report

or else he could -never- possibly turn
from his 'wickedness' and be forgiven,

and this, -after- having had the Law
read to him and agreeing to abide in it.

meaning, it is -possible- that a person
could have the Law read to him, and he agree
to abide in it, and -still- not understand it,
and commit a violation 'unintentionally'
or 'by accident' and be 'forgiven'


""Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?
declares the Sovereign YHWH. Rather, am I not
pleased when they turn from their ways and live?""


===
Ezekiel 18:25-32

Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not just."
Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is
it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous
man turns away from his righteousness and commits
injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice which
he has committed he shall die. Again, when a wicked
man turns away from the wickedness he has committed
and does what is lawful and right, he shall save
his life. Because he considered and turned away
from all the transgressions which he had committed,
he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not just."
O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your
ways that are not just? "Therefore I will judge you,
O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,
says the Lord YHWH. Repent and turn from all your
transgressions, lest injustice be your ruin.

Cast away from you all the transgressions which
you have committed against me, and get yourselves
a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die,
O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure
in the death of any one, says the Lord God;
so turn, and live."
===


now, how can Ezekiel be saying to turn around
to a corpse who has been put to death for
a single infraction?

there -must- be more to this than just;

"stub your toe get a brick upside the head"

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==

That verse as I mentioned is written to the born again believer who
continues wilfully in sin, they die again and are no longer able to be
saved.

it's no such thing, for it says;

"no one is free to say "I am tempted by God"

and James in no way despises the law as you do;


james 2

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?


and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

No Paul doesn't and neither does James who wrote it. It is a product
of your own confusion being unable to separate the Old Covenant from
the New.

==
Hebrews 10
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,
says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds
I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless
deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of
these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
==
as you would have it, God will wtite the
law of sin and death upon the people.

That is your misperception.

that is what you say and are left with.

When a person is born again they are made the righteousness of God by
His Grace and Mercy. No one can be more righteous than that. This
righteousness is in our born again spirit and is a part of our new
makeup. God's law is written in our hearts, and not the Mosaic Law.

so you think Moses made up some law of his own
and this is entirely different from God's law.

even though Jesus himself cites the great law as that spoken by Moses;

==
Matthew 22

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all
your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38
This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is
like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On
these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
==

Deuteronomy 6
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against
the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor
as yourself: I am the Lord.

It
is witten there so that we will not sin against him when one walks in
the spirit. The Holy Spirit of God dwells in the born again spirit of
man, whose spirit is sealed by God. The one part of us that is perfect
while we live on this earth. The only part of us, but it is 1/3rd of
who we are. Our mind with our spirit is the heart of man, and our mind
is the interface between our spirit and flesh. Yet if your mind sides
with the flesh and yields to its lusts you will sin but if to the Born
Again spirit it will not sin.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
The spirit of life did not dwell in all those who followed the Old
Covenant. They lived by works.

these had faith and worked righteousness;
and no, Jesus says that the people were
slaves to -sin- and not to the law.

Where?

right there in John 8:31 below.

Do I need to remind you that Jesus, living under the law, was speaking
to a people that were also under the law? The Mosaic law.

"whoever commits sin is a slave of sin."

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

"whoever commits sin is a slave of sin."


=
1 Timothy

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,
from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some,
having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be
teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the
things which they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good if
one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made
for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate
===


"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,
from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,"

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Timothy Sutter
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

Acts 13:21-23

22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king,
to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son
of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’
23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise,
God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—



Psalm 1:1-3

1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.


Psalm 94:11-13

11 The Lord knows the thoughts of man,
That they are futile.
12 Blessed is the man whom You instruct, O Lord,
And teach out of Your law,
13 That You may give him rest from the days of adversity,
Until the pit is dug for the wicked.


Psalm 40:7-9

7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”


Psalm 37:30-32

30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.



Psalm 19:7-8

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;



Psalm 119:1-3

119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the Lord!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
3 They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.


Psalm 119:33-35

33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall keep it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.


Psalm 119:71-73
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.

73 Your hands have made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.



Psalm 119:77

Let Your tender mercies come to me,
that I may live; For Your law is my delight.



Psalm 119:92

Unless Your law had been my delight,
I would then have perished in my affliction.


Psalm 119:97

Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.

Psalm 119:109
My life is continually in my hand,
Yet I do not forget Your law.

Psalm 119:113

I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law.

Psalm 119:126
It is time for You to act, O Lord, For they
have regarded Your law as void.


Psalm 119:142

Your righteousness is an everlasting
righteousness, And Your law is truth.


Psalm 119:165

Great peace have those who love Your law,
And nothing causes them to stumble.

Psalm 119:174

I long for Your salvation, O Lord,
And Your law is my delight.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

What law?
Death came as a result of Adam disobeying God.

Gen 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
the garden thou mayest freely eat: 
Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die. 

The penalty for violating the commandment was death (v.17)— instant
spiritual death and progressive physical death.

Adam yielded to Satan all that was his. Take a good look at the evil
that permeated the earth and 25 years after Enoch died, God destroyed
all that was in the earth save Noah and his family. Then came the
Noahide Covenants. The law of a death penalty for those who took the
life of a man.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Acts 13:21-23
22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king,
to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son
of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’
23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise,
God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—

Jesus saved Israel from the curse of the law.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Psalm 1:1-3
1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.
Psalm 94:11-13
11 The Lord knows the thoughts of man,
That they are futile.
12 Blessed is the man whom You instruct, O Lord,
And teach out of Your law,
13 That You may give him rest from the days of adversity,
Until the pit is dug for the wicked.
Psalm 40:7-9
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”
Psalm 37:30-32
30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.
32 The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.
Psalm 19:7-8
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;
Psalm 119:1-3
119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the Lord!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
3 They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.
Psalm 119:33-35
33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall keep it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.
Psalm 119:71-73
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.
73 Your hands have made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.
Psalm 119:77
Let Your tender mercies come to me,
that I may live; For Your law is my delight.
Psalm 119:92
Unless Your law had been my delight,
I would then have perished in my affliction.
Psalm 119:97
Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
Psalm 119:109
My life is continually in my hand,
Yet I do not forget Your law.
Psalm 119:113
I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law.
Psalm 119:126
It is time for You to act, O Lord, For they
have regarded Your law as void.
Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting
righteousness, And Your law is truth.
Psalm 119:165
Great peace have those who love Your law,
And nothing causes them to stumble.
Psalm 119:174
I long for Your salvation, O Lord,
And Your law is my delight.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Timothy Sutter
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

What law?

"nomion" is not just sets of regulations
just like a nomion of gravity, the nomion
of sin and death is in man from the garden.

Post by Robert
Death came as a result of Adam disobeying God.

the tree itself has a taint in it which brought on death.

Post by Robert
Gen 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die.

teh tree itself was not good for food, or else it would not have been
proscribed against.

do not eat, day eat die, ...not good for food,

the trees God placed were good for food/

Post by Robert
The penalty for violating the commandment was death (v.17)— instant
spiritual death and progressive physical death.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==

sin -entered- through Adam's eating that tree
and death through that sin which entered.

law of sin and death is at work way before the law was passed to Moses.

Post by Robert
Adam yielded to Satan all that was his. Take a good look at the evil
that permeated the earth and 25 years after Enoch died, God destroyed
all that was in the earth save Noah and his family. Then came the
Noahide Covenants. The law of a death penalty for those who took the
life of a man.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Acts 13:21-23
22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king,
to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son
of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’
23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise,
God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—

Jesus saved Israel from the curse of the law.

Jesus saves man from the corrupting effects of
the world and the sin nature of the body.

teh law is not evil, God forbid.

teh law is not sin, God forbid.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

What law?

look how the NASB translates Romans 7, look for the CAPITALIZED words

==
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into
bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not
practicing what I [would] like to [do], but I am doing the very thing I
hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want [to do], I agree with
the Law, [confessing] that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the
one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good
dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me,
but the doing of the good [is] not. 19For the good that I want, I do not
do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing
the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin
which dwells in me.

21I find then the PRINCIPLE that evil is present in me, the one who
wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the
inner man, 23but I see a DIFFERENT law in the members of my body, waging
war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of
sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me
free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus
Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am
serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
==

this Principle that evil is present in Paul
is the law of sin and death. a Different
law at work in his BOdy

there are clearly two different influences at work there.

The LAw of God and how it affests Paul's mind

and teh law of sin and death which is
present and works in Paul's Body.

they are in conflict.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

What law?

look how the NASB translates Romans 7, look for the CAPITALIZED words
==
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into
bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not
practicing what I [would] like to [do], but I am doing the very thing I
hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want [to do], I agree with
the Law, [confessing] that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the
one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good
dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me,
but the doing of the good [is] not. 19For the good that I want, I do not
do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing
the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin
which dwells in me.
21I find then the PRINCIPLE that evil is present in me, the one who
wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the
inner man, 23but I see a DIFFERENT law in the members of my body, waging
war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of
sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me
free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus
Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am
serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
==
this Principle that evil is present in Paul
is the law of sin and death. a Different
law at work in his BOdy
there are clearly two different influences at work there.
The LAw of God and how it affests Paul's mind
and teh law of sin and death which is
present and works in Paul's Body.
they are in conflict.

7:8 Sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all
manner of evil desire. Evil desire here means coveting. When the law
forbids all kinds of evil coveting, man's corrupt nature is inflamed
all the more to do it. For example, the law says, in effect, “You must
not conjure up all sorts of pleasurable sexual encounters in your
mind. You must not live in a world of lustful fantasies.” The law
forbids a dirty, vile, suggestive thought-life. But unfortunately it
doesn't give the power to overcome. So the result is that people under
law become more involved in a dream-world of sexual uncleanness than
ever before. They come to realize that whenever an act is forbidden,
the fallen nature wants to do it all the more. “Stolen water is sweet,
and bread eaten in secret is pleasant” (Pro_9:17).

Apart from the law sin is dead, relatively speaking. The sinful nature
is like a sleeping dog. When the law comes and says “Don't,” the dog
wakes up and goes on a rampage, doing excessively whatever is
forbidden.

7:9 Before being convicted by the law Paul was alive; that is, his
sinful nature was comparatively dormant and he was blissfully ignorant
of the pit of iniquity in his heart.
But when the commandment came — that is, when it came with crushing
conviction—his sinful nature became thoroughly inflamed. The more he
tried to obey, the worse he failed. He died as far as any hope of
achieving salvation by his own character or efforts was concerned. He
died to any thought of his own inherent goodness. He died to any dream
of being justified by law-keeping.

7:10 He found that the commandment, which was to bring life actually
turned out to bring death for him. But what does he mean that the
commandment was to bring life? This probably looks back to Lev_18:5,
where God said, “You shall therefore keep My statutes and My
judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.”
Ideally the law promised life to those who kept it. The sign outside a
lion's cage says, “Stay back of the railing.” If obeyed, the
commandment brings life. But for the child who disobeys and reaches in
to pet the lion, it brings death.

7:11 Again Paul emphasizes that the law was not to blame. It was
indwelling sin that incited him to do what the law prohibited. Sin
tricked him into thinking that the forbidden fruit wasn't so bad after
all, that it would bring happiness, and that he could get away with
it. It suggested that God was withholding pleasures from him that were
for his good. Thus sin killed him in the sense that it spelled death
to his best hopes of deserving or earning salvation.

7:12 The law itself is holy, and each commandment is holy and just and
good. In our thinking we must constantly remember that there is
nothing wrong with the law. It was given by God and therefore is
perfect as an expression of His will for His people. The weakness of
the law lay in the “raw materials” it had to work with: it was given
to people who were already sinners. They needed the law to give them
the knowledge of sin, but beyond that they needed a Savior to deliver
them from the penalty and power of sin.

7:13 What is good refers to the law, as is specifically stated in the
preceding verse. Paul raises the question “Did the law become death to
me?” which means “Is the law the culprit, dooming Paul (and all the
rest of us) to death?” The answer, of course, is “Certainly not!” Sin
is the culprit. The law didn't originate sin, but it showed sin in all
its exceeding sinfulness. “By the law is the knowledge of sin”
(3:20b). But that is not all! How does man's sinful nature respond
when God's holy law forbids it to do something? The answer is
well-known. What may have been dormant desire now becomes a burning
passion! Thus sin through the commandment becomes exceedingly sinful.

There might seem to be a contradiction between what Paul says here and
in 7:10. There he said he found the law to bring death. Here he denies
that the law became death to him. The solution is this: The law by
itself can neither improve the old nature on the one hand nor cause it
to sin on the other. It can reveal sin, just as a thermometer reveals
the temperature. But it cannot control sin like a thermostat controls
the temperature.

But what happens is this. Man's fallen human nature instinctively
wants to do whatever is forbidden. So it uses the law to awaken
otherwise-dormant lusts in the sinner's life. The more man tries, the
worse it gets, till at last he is brought to despair of all hope. Thus
sin uses the law to cause any hope of improvement to die in him. And
he sees the exceeding sinfulness of his old nature as he never saw it
before.

*************************************
7:14 Up to this point the apostle has been describing a past
experience in his life—namely, the traumatic crisis when he underwent
deep conviction of sin through the law's ministry.

Now he changes to the present tense to describe an experience he had
since he was born again—namely, the conflict between the two natures
and the impossibility of finding deliverance from the power of
indwelling sin through his own strength. Paul acknowledges that the
law is spiritual—that is, holy in itself and adapted to man's
spiritual benefit. But he realizes that he is carnal because he is not
experiencing victory over the power of indwelling sin in his life. He
is sold under sin. He feels as if he is sold as a slave with sin as
his master.

7:15 Now the apostle describes the struggle that goes on in a believer
who does not know the truth of his identification with Christ in death
and resurrection. It is the conflict between the two natures in the
person who climbs Mount Sinai in search of holiness. Harry Foster
explains:

Here was a man trying to achieve holiness by personal effort,
struggling with all his might to fulfill God's “holy and righteous and
good” commandments (v.12), only to discover that the more he
struggled, the worse his condition became. It was a losing battle, and
no wonder, for it is not in the power of fallen human nature to
conquer sin and live in holiness.

Notice the prominence of the first-person pronouns—I, me, my, myself;
they occur over forty times in verses 9-25! People who go through this
Romans 7 experience have taken an overdose of “Vitamin I.” They are
introspective to the core, searching for victory in self, where it
cannot be found.

Sadly, most modern Christian psychological counseling focuses the
counselee's attention on himself and thus adds to the problem instead
of relieving it. People need to know that they have died with Christ
and have risen with Him to walk in newness of life. Then, instead of
trying to improve the flesh, they will relegate it to the grave of
Jesus.

In describing the struggle between the two natures, Paul says, what I
am doing, I do not understand. He is a split personality, a Dr. Jekyll
and Mr. Hyde. He finds himself indulging in things that he doesn't
want to do, and practicing things that he hates.

7:16 In thus committing acts which his better judgment condemns, he is
taking sides with the law against himself, because the law condemns
them too. So he gives inward assent that the law is good.

7:17 This leads to the conclusion that the culprit is not the new man
in Christ, but the sinful, corrupt nature that dwells in him. But we
must be careful here. We must not excuse our sinning by passing it off
to indwelling sin. We are responsible for what we do, and we must not
use this verse to “pass the buck.” All Paul is doing here is tracking
down the source of his sinful behavior, not excusing it.

7:18 There can be no progress in holiness until we learn what Paul
learned here—that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells.
The flesh here means the evil, corrupt nature which is inherited from
Adam and which is still in every believer. It is the source of every
evil action which a person performs. There is nothing good in it.
When we learn this, it delivers us from ever looking for any good in
the old nature. It delivers us from being disappointed when we don't
find any good there. And it delivers us from occupation with
ourselves. There is no victory in introspection. As the saintly Scot,
Robert Murray McCheyne said, for every look we take at ourselves, we
should take ten looks at Christ.

To confirm the hopelessness of the flesh, the apostle mourns that
although he has the desire to do what is right, he doesn't have the
resources in himself to translate his desire into action. The trouble,
of course, is that he is casting his anchor inside the boat.

7:19 Thus the conflict between the two natures rages on. He finds
himself failing to do the good he wants to do, and instead doing the
evil that he despises. He is just one great mass of contradictions and
paradoxes.

7:20 We might paraphrase this verse as follows: “Now if I (the old
nature) do what I (the new nature) don't want to do, it is no longer I
(the person) who do it, but sin that dwells within me.” Again let it
be clear that Paul is not excusing himself or disclaiming
responsibility. He is simply stating that he has not found deliverance
from the power of indwelling sin, and that when he sins, it is not
with the desire of the new man.

7:21 He finds a principle or law at work in his life causing all his
good intentions to end in failure. When he wants to do what is right,
he ends up by sinning.

7:22 As far as his new nature is concerned, he delights in the law of
God. He knows that the law is holy, and that it is an expression of
the will of God. He wants to do God's will.

7:23 But he sees a contrary principle at work in his life, striving
against the new nature, and making him a captive of indwelling sin.
George Cutting writes:

The law, though he delights in it after the inward man, gives him no
power. In other words, he is trying to accomplish what God has
declared to be an utter impossibility—namely, making the flesh subject
to God's holy law. He finds that the flesh minds the things of the
flesh, and is very enmity itself to the law of God, and even to God
Himself.[## This law is the Mosaic Law in all this he is also
describing himself as a Jew following the law, not as a Christian]

7:24 Now Paul lets out his famous, eloquent groan. He feels as if he
has a decomposing body strapped to his back. That body, of course, is
the old nature in all its corruption. In his wretchedness he
acknowledges that he is unable to deliver himself from this offensive,
repulsive bondage. He must have help from some outside source.

7:25 The burst of thanksgiving which opens this verse may be
understood in at least two ways. It may mean “I thank God that
deliverance comes through Jesus Christ our Lord” or it may be an aside
in which Paul thanks God through the Lord Jesus that he is no longer
the wretched man of the preceding verse.

The rest of the verse summarizes the conflict between the two natures
before deliverance is realized. With the renewed mind, or the new
nature, the believer serves the law of God, but with the flesh or (old
nature) the law of sin. Not till we reach the next chapter do we find
the way of deliverance explained.
*****************

J. The Holy Spirit as the Power for Holy Living (Chap. 8)
The subject of holy living continues. In chapter 6 Paul had answered
the question, “Does the teaching of the gospel (salvation by faith
alone) permit or even encourage sinful living?” In chapter 7 he faced
up to the question, “Does the gospel tell Christians to keep the law
in order to lead a holy life?” Now the question is: How is the
Christian enabled to live a holy life?

We notice right away that the personal pronouns that were so prominent
in chapter 7 largely disappear, and that the Holy Spirit becomes the
dominant Person. This is an important key to understanding the
passage. Victory is not in ourselves but in the Holy Spirit, who
indwells us. A. J. Gordon lists seven helps of the Spirit: freedom in
service (v. 2); strength for service (v. 11); victory over sin (v.
13); guidance in service (v. 14); the witness of sonship (v. 16);
assistance in service (v. 26); assistance in prayer (v. 26).

8:1 From the valley of despair and defeat, the apostle now climbs the
heights with the triumphant shout, There is therefore now no
condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus! This may be understood
in two ways.

First, there is no divine condemnation as far as our sin is concerned,
because we are in Christ. There was condemnation as long as we were in
our first federal head, Adam. But now we are in Christ and therefore
are as free from condemnation as He is. So we can hurl out the
challenge:

Reach my blest Savior first,
Take Him from God's esteem;
Prove Jesus bears one spot of sin,
Then tell me I'm unclean.
—W. N. Tomkins

But it may also mean that there is no need for the kind of
self-condemnation which Paul described in chapter 7. We may pass
through a Romans 7 experience, unable to fulfill the law's
requirements by our own effort, but we don't have to stay there. Verse
2 explains why there is no condemnation.

8:2 The Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the
law of sin and death. These are two opposite laws or principles. The
characteristic principle of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers
for holy living. The characteristic principle of indwelling sin is to
drag a person down to death. It is like the law of gravity. When you
throw a ball into the air, it comes back down because it is heavier
than the air it displaces. A living bird is also heavier than the air
it displaces, but when you toss it up in the air, it flies away. The
law of life in the bird overcomes the law of gravity. So the Holy
Spirit supplies the risen life of the Lord Jesus, making the believer
free from the law of sin and death.

8:3 The law could never get people to fulfill its sacred requirements,
but grace has succeeded where law failed. Let us see how!
The law could not produce holy living because it was weak through the
flesh. The trouble was not with the law but with fallen human nature.
The law spoke to men who were already sinners and who were without
strength to obey. But God intervened by sending His own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh. Take careful notice that the Lord Jesus did
not come in sinful flesh itself but in “the likeness of” sinful flesh.
He did no sin (1Pe_2:22), He knew no sin (2Co_5:21), and there was no
sin in Him (1Jn_3:5). But by coming into the world in human form, He
resembled sinful humanity. As a sacrifice for sin, Christ condemned
sin in the flesh. He died not only for the sins which we commit
(1Pe_3:18) but also for our sin nature. In other words, He died for
what we are just as much as for what we have done. In so doing, He
condemned sin in the flesh. Our sin nature is never said to be
forgiven; it is condemned. It is the sins that we have committed that
are forgiven.

8:4 Now the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who do
not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. As we
turn over the control of our lives to the Holy Spirit, He empowers us
to love God and to love our neighbor, and that, after all, is what the
law requires.

In these first four verses the apostle has gathered together the
threads of his argument from 5:12 to 7:25. In Rom_5:12-21 he had
discussed the federal headships of Adam and of Christ. Now in 8:1 he
shows that the condemnation which we inherited from our identification
with Adam is removed by our identification with Christ. In chapters 6
and 7 he discussed the horrendous problem of sin in the nature. Now he
announces triumphantly that the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus
has made us free from the law of sin and death. In chapter 7 the whole
subject of the law was brought up. Now we learn that the law's
requirements are met by the Spirit-controlled life.

*******************************
Timothy, what you may not realize is that Salvation is through Jesus
Christ, it is also Him working through us that enables our lives in
Christ. It is not of our works, and it is not of us following a law or
laws that enables it.

It is God within that gives us the will and the ability to do it. This
is promised by God through Jesus and his Holy Spirit.

Rom 7:6  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead
wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and
not in the oldness of the letter.

And this is speaking purely of the Mosaic law.(the letter of the law)

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;

=
Rom 7:22-23

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=


and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.

simple

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

Death to what, as long as you are still breathing Oxygen.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.

this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.

it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.

If you were to allow God to renew your mind you could see Paul's
review of life under the law, its weakness, and leading into the
spiritual walk made possible by Jesus Christ. This walk is what Jesus
spoke of when he mentioned that the weakest of the believers were
greater than the greatest prophets.

Post by Timothy Sutter
this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

It was contrasted with the Mosaic Law. The Law of the mind, not the
spirit. That law empowered no one.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that
it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the
flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in
us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the
things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the
things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be
spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is
enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor
indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit
of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of
Christ, he is not His.
(Rom 8:2-9 NKJV)

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.

If you were to allow God to renew your mind you could see Paul's
review of life under the law, its weakness, and leading into the
spiritual walk made possible by Jesus Christ. This walk is what Jesus
spoke of when he mentioned that the weakest of the believers were
greater than the greatest prophets.

like when he says things like this?

Acts 24:14

But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which
they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written
in the Law and in the Prophets.

Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews,
nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything
at all.”

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the
Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded
is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it
is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who
are in the flesh cannot please God.


law not the enslavement, carnal mind the enslavement, rather simple.

Post by Robert
How many times must this be brought to your remembrance? Did God Lie
here? Did he contradict Himself here? No. The Mosaic law is not a law
written on our hearts by God as foretold in the scriptures.

the law of sin and death is an other law working in Paul's body[members]

Post by Robert
So just what part of these verses do you not understand.

it's clear to me thatthe law of sin and death is an attribute
of the flesh and not a code of law offered up by God.

man is freed from that as he walks in the Spirit.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Sorry, but if you are not born again there is no warfare going on.
Your spirit is evil, opposed to the knowledge of God, and it is your
natural being.
The sin nature of the flesh is opposed to the new creation of the
Spirit of those who are born again. Which is why we must walk in/with
the Spirit and consider the desires of the flesh dead, and walk in the
newness of Life.

yet, you say this about Paul;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

so, you cannot possibly be saying that Paul is delighting in
the law of God in his inward man before he is born again
as he describes in Romans 7 and 8 .

Paul is warring with the law of his mind there.

you are confusing yourself.

you'll have to pick one or the other.

either Paul speaks of a person who is not
born again in Romans 7 and 8

or he is speaking of one who is born again.

if you say he is not born again there, he delights
in teh law of his mind, and you are confused.

if he is born again there, you say he is dead
to God there and you are still confused.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

That is your mistake, totally. The law is to instruct and magnify what
sin is. It never, ever, instructed anyone on how to sin, nor did it
put any desire to sin in your being.

you say that Paul believes that the law taught him sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

Yes, because of the fleshly desires within them. The had to
consciously follow the law. It was not a natural desire of their
being, like it is with a person who is Born Again.

you think no one else but these had any success at all"

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

and you would suggest that a person walking in the
law in contrariness to their flesh sin nature was not
experiencing a conflict with God's Spirit who was in their midst?

of course they wre, that is why many became
ill and had various skin disorders. [isaiah 1]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the
law.

this in no way implies that God's law placed 'sin' into anyone.
you would be walking contrary to Jame's dictum that no one is
free to claim that God is tempting him.

Post by Robert
The law was a light, magnifying the sin in their lives, it was weak,

the flesh is weak, and the carnal mind of man has dificulty
comprehending the law, which was veiled to them like Moses' face.

Post by Robert
in that whatever man dwells on in their minds they do more of it. It
is part and parcel with the rebellion that is in man. Tell a man not
to do something, and out of spite they will do it.

when God says "no" God means "no"

God is not saying no and meaning yes, this is a slander
to accuse God of reverse psychology, for, in that regard,
you make God a liar.

you make God the author of confusion.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Yet when Christ appeared, they killed him. The curse of the law was
manifold, and went from mild to harsh, and the more one sinned the
harsher the curse. If they followed the law they were blessed.
Believers in Jesus Christ were freed from all that, first the Jew,
then the Gentile (who were never under the law, and Paul mentions that
as well.)

and yet, Paul gets all upset with the corinthian
man who is sleeping with his father's wife.

Paul hasn't abandoned the law. he delights in it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

2:13 Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect
and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because
he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining
justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But
since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So
this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than
something that is capable of human attainment.

you mean like John's parents?

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

you think they were the only ones?


the initial little ones who were to
enter the promised land were clean;

==
Deuteronomy 1:39

‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say
will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil,
they shall go in there; to them I will give it,
and they shall possess it.
==

Post by Robert
It was never God's intention that anyone be saved by the law.

it was never God's intention that sin
would enter in to a person -by- the law.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

Yet you claimed that the commandment of the forbidden fruit was the
law of sin and death. Have you changed your mind?

it is the source of this principle for that is
where sin and death enter into human beings

from the knowledge of good and evil.

Post by Robert
There was no sin and death reigning in this world until Adam ate the
forbidden fruit. See your verse below.

no kidding. sin and death entered with Adam.

that's exactly what it says below.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;
==
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the

beginning.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Galatians 4:8-10
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

Sorry, they do not parallel each other. Peter speaks to those who were
born again and turned away from God, renouncing Jesus, and living in a
life of sin, and that their end will be worse for them then if they
had never been born again.

nope, those false teachers were in error and they
are slaves of =corruption= not of any law of moses.

Post by Robert
Paul is speaking to the Galatians as I had mentioned before who were
delivered of the pagan rites and rotes of religion, and are now
turning to the Jewish rites and rotes, being deceived by the weak
Jewish believer who found it difficult to give up the old ways feeling
that they had to do something to earn their righteousness. when in
Jesus the gift of righteousness is totally free.

the slavery is to corruption and fleshly sin and not to any law of moses.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.
Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

That thought is a byproduct of your misunderstandings.

it's what Jesus says as well, see John 8:31 and actually read it for once.

Jesus clearly says that those are slaves to sin, not to law of moses.
==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.


notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;
i said this;
"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.
sin and death entered through Adam and spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

Yet God is alive and not dead, rendering your statement moot.

Adam is dead and all of his offspring have inherited
the law of sin and death and sin and die.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

Not the law of, but sin and death only.

it is a principle, the principle of
sin and death and it came through Adam.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

Paul Does. It is not something I made up. You read it, yet you deny
it.

not so, he calls that "another law
which is at work in my members"

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

The law reveals evil. It is for sinners, not the righteous. It told
you part of what it takes to be Good, but no one outside of Christ
could do it.

still not seeing John's parents.

Post by Robert
All the scripture I gave you showing that the law
magnifies evil, of what use is it to you? You put the blame for that
understanding on me, not the scripture of God which I presented to
you.

the slavery is to sin and the corruption of the flesh.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul very clearly says;
==
Romans 7
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===

Lets put these verses into today's language yet pure to the Greek.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I
doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which
dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that
when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me
and I am subject to its insistent demands.

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:22 For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost
self [with my new nature]. [Psa_1:2]

so now you have Paul speaking about the law in
his new nature only just yesterday, you say this;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

you are tangled up in confusion.

you have Paul delighting in his new nature
and dead to God ant the same time.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:23 But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at
war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to
the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh].

the law of sin and death that dwells in his body... bingo, you got it.

not a written code of ethics or anything of that sort.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will
release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
Rom 7:25 O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed
One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart,
serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

two different principles, one the law of God
and one the appetites and wills of the flesh

your own translation sees it better than you are.

read it.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.
this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

It was contrasted with the Mosaic Law. The Law of the mind, not the
spirit. That law empowered no one.

YES, "it", this "another law in my members" =is=

contrasted with the law of moses.

and this warring between the two,

the 'another law in my members' and the "law of his mind;"

is bringing Paul in to captivity to the law of sin and death,
which is -not- the law of his mind, the law of moses,

but is the 'principle' which is in his body[members]

you are almost there, your inner person
seems to see it, that is, your sub-conscious

now, all you have to do is edify your
conscious mind with this new found truth.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
    Rom 7:22-23
    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
    of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
    which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
    which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.
this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

It was contrasted with the Mosaic Law. The Law of the mind, not the
spirit. That law empowered no one.

and isn't it strange that Paul, not 2 seconds later,

says that he serves the the "law of God"...with his mind;

while serving this other principle with his body.

so, inasmuch as you call the law of moses "the Law of the mind"

we can show romans 7:25 in this way;


Romans 7:25 [original]

25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh
I serve the law of sin.


Romans 7:25 Robert's new version...

25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
with my mind I serve the law of Moses, but with my flesh
I serve the law of sin [and death].


law of sin and death -contrasted- with

law of moses and law of God.

YES, "it", this "another law in my members"  =is=
contrasted with the law of moses.
and this warring between the two,
the 'another law in my members' and the "law of his mind;"
is bringing Paul in to captivity to the law of sin and death,
 which is -not- the law of his mind, the law of moses,
but is the 'principle' which is in his body[members]
you are almost there, your inner person
seems to see it, that is, your sub-conscious
now, all you have to do is edify your
conscious mind with this new found truth.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
    Rom 7:22-23
    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
    of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
    which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
    which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.
this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

It was contrasted with the Mosaic Law. The Law of the mind, not the
spirit. That law empowered no one.

and isn't it strange that Paul, not 2 seconds later,
says that he serves the the "law of God"...with his mind;
while serving this other principle with his body.
so, inasmuch as you call the law of moses "the Law of the mind"
we can show romans 7:25 in this way;

Sorry Timothy, I have nothing more to say here on this chapter and
topic. What I explained to you earlier regarding Chapter 7 and 8 and
their differences, still stand, and will stand. That you glossed over
it and disregarded it is you loss.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Romans 7:25 [original]
25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh
I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:25 Robert's new version...
25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
with my mind I serve the law of Moses, but with my flesh
I serve the law of sin [and death].
law of sin and death -contrasted- with
law of moses and law of God.

YES, "it", this "another law in my members"  =is=
contrasted with the law of moses.
and this warring between the two,
the 'another law in my members' and the "law of his mind;"
is bringing Paul in to captivity to the law of sin and death,
 which is -not- the law of his mind, the law of moses,
but is the 'principle' which is in his body[members]
you are almost there, your inner person
seems to see it, that is, your sub-conscious
now, all you have to do is edify your
conscious mind with this new found truth.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the
Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded
is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it
is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who
are in the flesh cannot please God.


law not the enslavement, carnal mind the enslavement, rather simple.

Post by Robert
How many times must this be brought to your remembrance? Did God Lie
here? Did he contradict Himself here? No. The Mosaic law is not a law
written on our hearts by God as foretold in the scriptures.

the law of sin and death is an other law working in Paul's body[members]

Post by Robert
So just what part of these verses do you not understand.

it's clear to me thatthe law of sin and death is an attribute
of the flesh and not a code of law offered up by God.

man is freed from that as he walks in the Spirit.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Sorry, but if you are not born again there is no warfare going on.
Your spirit is evil, opposed to the knowledge of God, and it is your
natural being.
The sin nature of the flesh is opposed to the new creation of the
Spirit of those who are born again. Which is why we must walk in/with
the Spirit and consider the desires of the flesh dead, and walk in the
newness of Life.

yet, you say this about Paul;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

so, you cannot possibly be saying that Paul is delighting in
the law of God in his inward man before he is born again
as he describes in Romans 7 and 8 .

Paul is warring with the law of his mind there.

you are confusing yourself.

you'll have to pick one or the other.

either Paul speaks of a person who is not
born again in Romans 7 and 8

or he is speaking of one who is born again.

if you say he is not born again there, he delights
in teh law of his mind, and you are confused.

if he is born again there, you say he is dead
to God there and you are still confused.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

That is your mistake, totally. The law is to instruct and magnify what
sin is. It never, ever, instructed anyone on how to sin, nor did it
put any desire to sin in your being.

you say that Paul believes that the law taught him sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

Yes, because of the fleshly desires within them. The had to
consciously follow the law. It was not a natural desire of their
being, like it is with a person who is Born Again.

you think no one else but these had any success at all"

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

and you would suggest that a person walking in the
law in contrariness to their flesh sin nature was not
experiencing a conflict with God's Spirit who was in their midst?

of course they wre, that is why many became
ill and had various skin disorders. [isaiah 1]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the
law.

this in no way implies that God's law placed 'sin' into anyone.
you would be walking contrary to Jame's dictum that no one is
free to claim that God is tempting him.

Post by Robert
The law was a light, magnifying the sin in their lives, it was weak,

the flesh is weak, and the carnal mind of man has dificulty
comprehending the law, which was veiled to them like Moses' face.

Post by Robert
in that whatever man dwells on in their minds they do more of it. It
is part and parcel with the rebellion that is in man. Tell a man not
to do something, and out of spite they will do it.

when God says "no" God means "no"

God is not saying no and meaning yes, this is a slander
to accuse God of reverse psychology, for, in that regard,
you make God a liar.

you make God the author of confusion.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Yet when Christ appeared, they killed him. The curse of the law was
manifold, and went from mild to harsh, and the more one sinned the
harsher the curse. If they followed the law they were blessed.
Believers in Jesus Christ were freed from all that, first the Jew,
then the Gentile (who were never under the law, and Paul mentions that
as well.)

and yet, Paul gets all upset with the corinthian
man who is sleeping with his father's wife.

Paul hasn't abandoned the law. he delights in it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

2:13 Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect
and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because
he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining
justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But
since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So
this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than
something that is capable of human attainment.

you mean like John's parents?

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

you think they were the only ones?


the initial little ones who were to
enter the promised land were clean;

==
Deuteronomy 1:39

‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say
will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil,
they shall go in there; to them I will give it,
and they shall possess it.
==

Post by Robert
It was never God's intention that anyone be saved by the law.

it was never God's intention that sin
would enter in to a person -by- the law.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

Yet you claimed that the commandment of the forbidden fruit was the
law of sin and death. Have you changed your mind?

it is the source of this principle for that is
where sin and death enter into human beings

from the knowledge of good and evil.

Post by Robert
There was no sin and death reigning in this world until Adam ate the
forbidden fruit. See your verse below.

no kidding. sin and death entered with Adam.

that's exactly what it says below.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==
you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

It wasn't the knowledge of Good and evil that caused Adam to die, it
was the doing of what was forbidden for him to do.

no, there was a taint to that tree, and that's
where Adam picked up the law of sin and death.

Post by Robert
Otherwise you would have to say that God also is evil, since
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of

no, the correct translation is that the
man became another =away from= God.

because, i welcome you to get a hebrew bible or an interlinear
hebrew translation and scour for the preposition "mmnu"

it is found in genesis 3:22 and commonly translated as "of"

but the very same word, masoretic vowel pointers and all,
is also found in Deuteronomy 12:32 and 28:31 and
translated as "away =from=" and the same word form
with a minor different vowel pointer is found
in Exodus 8:8 and is also translated as "away=from="
mind you, vowel pointers are not in the original but
added by the Masoretes, but, they did not -change-
the word at all, so look here first;

"mmnu" emphasized by me;

===
Deuteronomy 12:32

“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it;
you shall not add to it nor take =AWAY FROM= it.
=
Deuteronomy 28:31

<...>your donkey shall be violently taken =AWAY FROM= before you, <...>
=
Exodus 8:8

Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said,
“Entreat the Lord that He may take =AWAY= the frogs
=FROM= me and from my people; and I will let the
people go, that they may sacrifice to the Lord.”
===

and so, the better translation of Genessis 3:22 becomes;


"Behold, "The Man" has become another [AWAY] _From_ 'Us' [Gen 3:22]


and basically this -fits- so much better
with the actual happenings in the story.


the same "from" as Moses says, you shall
-not- take away "from" the words of this law,
neither shall you add to it.

and "from" is just about always speaking of a thing
that is taken away from something else, even if it
is a thing eaten -from- a particular tree.

one plucks a piece of fruit away -from- a tree,
and when you do, that piece of fruit is no
longer part of that tree, and generally
begins to decay.

so, even if one suggests that "The Man"

was pushed or pulled -away- =from= YHWH

"The Man" is still, -away- _from_ YHWH

and -not- "One -of- Us"


"One -of- Us" is the very =lie= the serpent told to "the Man"

[yeah yeah yeah, i already said Adam and
Eve could be referred to as "the man"
even if they did become distinct]

YHWH never said;

"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,
you shall become like YHWH and i don't want that"


no no no, YHWH said;


"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,

To Die you shall Die"


in other words, "you shall become DEAD"


and we see how the serpent's form, was actually -changed-
by YHWH so as to reflect the change that had already occurred
in the serpent's heart, becoming 'crafty' and not of the Truth.


oh, and one other little bit;

see, it says that YHWH caused to sprout a variety of
trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food,

and -then- it menations this "Tree [that] Lives"

being in the midst of the garden,

and -then- the mention is made of this 'other' tree that
was not good for foood but called the tree of the 'perception'
of good and bad which was able to make one DEAD if eaten.

now, here the /order/ matters

because, if tree with the perception of good and bad, came -second,
after the trees which were good for food and pleasing to teh eye,
then, one may infer quite readily that YHWH caused -that one- to
"sprout" as well as the others, but, in that the tree of Life,
or the tree that -already- lives, is placed second, between
the trees pleasing to the eye and good for food,

we need no suggest that this tree of perception of good and bad,

was among those caused to sprout by YHWH,

and this is because, this tree that lives,

the tree of Life, is already alive and lives forevermore
and need not be -caused- to sprout and is even associated
with the wisdom and inherent perpetual life of YHWH.

so, you have, YHWH causing trees which are good
for food and pleasing to the eye, to sprout,

and, then, speaking of a tree that simply -lives-
which is already in the midst of the garden

and then, speaking of this other
tree which is not good for food

of which the serpent used lies to cause them to eat of it.

Post by Robert
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of
Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

no, God not evil, but man did -not- become like God, but =away from= God.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;
==
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the

beginning.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Galatians 4:8-10
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

Sorry, they do not parallel each other. Peter speaks to those who were
born again and turned away from God, renouncing Jesus, and living in a
life of sin, and that their end will be worse for them then if they
had never been born again.

nope, those false teachers were in error and they
are slaves of =corruption= not of any law of moses.

Post by Robert
Paul is speaking to the Galatians as I had mentioned before who were
delivered of the pagan rites and rotes of religion, and are now
turning to the Jewish rites and rotes, being deceived by the weak
Jewish believer who found it difficult to give up the old ways feeling
that they had to do something to earn their righteousness. when in
Jesus the gift of righteousness is totally free.

the slavery is to corruption and fleshly sin and not to any law of moses.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.
Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

That thought is a byproduct of your misunderstandings.

it's what Jesus says as well, see John 8:31 and actually read it for once.

Jesus clearly says that those are slaves to sin, not to law of moses.
==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.


notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;
i said this;
"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.
sin and death entered through Adam and spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

Yet God is alive and not dead, rendering your statement moot.

Adam is dead and all of his offspring have inherited
the law of sin and death and sin and die.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

Not the law of, but sin and death only.

it is a principle, the principle of
sin and death and it came through Adam.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

Paul Does. It is not something I made up. You read it, yet you deny
it.

not so, he calls that "another law
which is at work in my members"

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

The law reveals evil. It is for sinners, not the righteous. It told
you part of what it takes to be Good, but no one outside of Christ
could do it.

still not seeing John's parents.

Post by Robert
All the scripture I gave you showing that the law
magnifies evil, of what use is it to you? You put the blame for that
understanding on me, not the scripture of God which I presented to
you.

the slavery is to sin and the corruption of the flesh.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul very clearly says;
==
Romans 7
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===

Lets put these verses into today's language yet pure to the Greek.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I
doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which
dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that
when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me
and I am subject to its insistent demands.

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:22 For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost
self [with my new nature]. [Psa_1:2]

so now you have Paul speaking about the law in
his new nature only just yesterday, you say this;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

you are tangled up in confusion.

you have Paul delighting in his new nature
and dead to God ant the same time.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:23 But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at
war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to
the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh].

the law of sin and death that dwells in his body... bingo, you got it.

not a written code of ethics or anything of that sort.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will
release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
Rom 7:25 O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed
One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart,
serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

two different principles, one the law of God
and one the appetites and wills of the flesh

your own translation sees it better than you are.

read it.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
What law?

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

IOW's you ignored it all?

it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.
this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

It was contrasted with the Mosaic Law. The Law of the mind, not the
spirit. That law empowered no one.

YES, "it", this "another law in my members" =is=
contrasted with the law of moses.
and this warring between the two,
the 'another law in my members' and the "law of his mind;"
is bringing Paul in to captivity to the law of sin and death,
which is -not- the law of his mind, the law of moses,
but is the 'principle' which is in his body[members]
you are almost there, your inner person
seems to see it, that is, your sub-conscious
now, all you have to do is edify your
conscious mind with this new found truth.

You are missing the boat.

You are hung up in the mind, in the carnality of man.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law

Post by Robert
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body

Post by Robert
of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the

mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Post by Robert
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

It isn't going to happen. You can see in Romans 8:2 That Jesus freed
the Jew and everyone from the Law of Sin and death.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==

Post by Robert
Here you can see that Paul in verse 5 that the motions of sin, which
were by the Law, meaning Mosaic Law brings forth Death.
Sin and Death.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him
who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto
God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which
were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
death.

==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

Post by Robert
Paul reiterates the point that it was the Law that made sin evident.
And without the Law, there was no sin.

people are sinning and dying without the law,
there is sin and there is death from Adam to Moses.

==
Galatians 3:18-20

19 What purpose then does the law serve?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
==

clearly "transgressions" exist prior to the law,
just as "sin" existed prior to the law, and one
could even equate the two, "transgression = sin"

an agreement that was clearly temporary,
but nonetheless, -not- "sin" itself.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Again, sin and death by the Law

no, the law is a tutor and a guard to keep the people
from wandering too far away -in- to 'sin' and from
their goal which is Christ;

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good.

sin deceived him, Paul practically sounds like Eve;

"the serpent tricked me, and i ate"

Paul says; "=sin= _tricked_ me, and i transgressed further"

Paul does not say;

"the law delivered me over to sin, that i should
become a monster worthy of eternal death"

Post by Robert
So then why did something which was good kill us?

people were already in transgression and were
dying without any law in their midst

"sin" was "working death" in Paul, and he, under the
guidance of the law as a tutor and a nanny
says that he became -more- 'sinful'

even though, Paul says that he was "blameless"

==
Philippians 3:6

concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning
the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
==



Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth
in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no
good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is
present with me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind

sort of like a heroine addict rueing the day
he ever started chasing teh little red dragon around.

he may sit there and ponder to himself;

"i know in my mind that i would be better off not
injecting this dope in my arms, but the pull is
too strong and i cannot give it up on my own,
i need help"

now, "The Law" is -not- a shot of heroin given
to -make- one rob cheat and steal and do murder
and lie and become another God in your mind

no.

The Law continually sits there and keeps saying
that cheating and stealing and murdering and
lying and having another God is -killing- you
even after you've turned a totally deaf ear to -it-
in deference and favor to that shot you like so much.

and in one's mind, they may still be able to
comprehend that such behaviors are bad and bad
for them and killing them and not just others,
but the pull is too strong, can't walk away.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Under the Mosaic Law, forgives came by the Blood sacrifice for Sin,
every year, it forgave for the previous year, and covered you like an
insurance policy if you happened to die before your next sacrifice.

nonsense, this makes the law a liscence and this is precisely
why YHWH says that he does not delight in the blood of bulls
and goats, because -once- should have been enough if they had
taken is all to heart, but it was not the law that failed,
but the people who failed.


==
Isaiah 1:11-13;16-18

11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says YHWH. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats. 12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
;
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of
your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow. 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall
be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
===

and Israel was exposed to the same spirit.

===
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that
all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through
the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and
in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all
drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that
spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for
their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent
that we should not desire after evil things as they also
desired. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of
them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat
and drink, and rose up to play.”
===

funny how Paul is saying that ancient Israel
is an example for those of this household of Faith
so as to not follow a bad example.

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law came with Blessings and Cursing's. Not one person who
was Jewish lived a sinless life, out side of Christ.

==
2 Samuel 22:23-25

23 For all His judgments were before me; And as for
His statutes, I did not depart from them. 24 I was
also blameless before Him, And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according
to my righteousness,According to my cleanness in His eyes.
==

==
Luke 1:5-7

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking
in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren,
and they were both well advanced in years.
==

"blameless"

Post by Robert
Israel could not attain to righteousness because they, like some
churches operate by works of the law and not by faith,

now how in the world can a people operate by works of the law
and become more sinful -because- of the same law?

some of them seemd to do as the nanny told them to do,
but harbored all sorts of ill -thinking- in their
minds against their fellows.

==
Matthew 23:25-26

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you
cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they
are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee,
first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that
the outside of them may be clean also.
==
Luke 11:39-40

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside
of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed
and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the
outside make the inside also?
==

"The Law" did =not= _make_ the "inside of the cup" filthy...

you have to realize that Paul is -not- saying that it did.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness,
hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it
were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Post by Robert
But it had nothing to do with your statement about
two distinct covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.

Robert says;

Post by Robert
That was not your original statement, nor your original premise. And
you never came to grips with Sinai and Jerusalem.

of course it does, i said Hagar was
a binding contract and not a slavery.

Jesus says that those were slaves
to 'sin' not slaves to the law;

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

Post by Robert

if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.

Are you mixing up bondage and slavery? as in
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

the 'slavery' is to 'sin' that 'law' which is at
work in the members of your body, the flesh.

Post by Robert
No one forced the Jew into the Mosaic Law, they, the Israelites all
voted on it after it was read to them, They signed on to the covenant
and pledged theyselves.

and that contract is a guarding tutor, a nanny
added because they were -already- transgressing,
in order to keep them in line until Christ appears.
Galatians 3:23-25


=how= can a tutor meant to bring one to Christ
educe in a man like Paul, -worse- behavior?

Paul said that "sin" =deceived= him

Paul does not say that the law placed sin in him
he says sin tricked him into rebelling against
the law that was meant as a good tutor to
bring him closer to God.

Post by Robert

if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

It was a mutual contract, ratified by the nation of Israel.

of course it was a mutual contract

and there was no "fine print" of which anyone was
not aware but which -caused- slavery to sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it

That "bound" is the bondage spoken of. Not the slavery you speak of.

well, at least you're getting closer to the truth.
yes, the binding nature of the agreement is that
to which Israel was bound,

and the slavery to 'sin' already exists
and people already die because of it.

Post by Robert

=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a

new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when

Post by Robert

I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."

They divorced him, first the ten tribes and then the rest later on.

the =fault= found was not in the contract and the law,

but in the people

Post by Robert

"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

In Christ were are freed from the law written in tablets of stone, and
he writes his new laws in our hearts of flesh.

what "new" laws?

==
Hebrews 8

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws in their mind and write them on
their hearts; and I will be their God, and they
shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach
his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,
‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from
the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins I will remember no more.”
==

God hasn't changed

==
Jeremiah 9:13

And the Lord said, “Because they have forsaken
My law which I set before them, and have not
obeyed My voice, nor walked according to it,
==

"My law" is still "My law"

you would say that God writes the
law of sin and death on 'our' hearts.

Post by Robert
The are more like the
desire of our hearts to do, out of and because of Love.

you say that the -written- "law" places sin and death in to people

now you'd be saying that God will place sin and death in to people
aside from a written law by direct spiritual interaction.

and such -is- silly and absurd.

[Timothy Sutter]

=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"

when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.""" [James 1:13]


Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

here's Jesus quoting Moses and saying
that man shall live by the word of God.

he doesn't say man shall live by
the law of sin and death...

==
Matthew 4:4

But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but
by every word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.’”
=
Luke 4:4

But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by
every word of God.’”
=
Deuteronomy 8:3

So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you
with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers
know, that He might make you know that man shall not
live by bread alone; but man lives by every word
that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
==


here Paul, contrasts the law and
faith according -to- the law

==
Romans 10 5

For Moses writes about the righteousness which
is of the law, “The man who does those things
shall live by them.
=
Leviticus 18:5

You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments,
which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
==

he cites 'the law' and says that one would 'live' by them.

not that the law draws man further and further
in to darkness and death.

law of God is -not- law of sin and death.



and below, Paul -cites- _Moses_ to explain 'faith'
==
Romans 10:6-8

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”
(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who
will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”
=
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very near you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it.
==

Paul says that the word, 'the law', is
near you that you may do it, by faith.

not and never that the law is there
to draw you in to darkness and kill you.

no,

James clearly explains what Paul means ;

==
James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
==


now, it should be clear, that, this;

when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""

=IS= "the law of sin and death" ....

Paul just has an awkward way of expressing =this=.

James and the elders all call Paul a "brother" [Acts 21:21-20]

etc

no,


=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"

when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""

or as Paul would say;

"=another= law working in my body"...

==
Romans 7:23

But I see another law in my members, warring against
the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members.
==

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.""" [James 1:13]
Paul just has an awkwardly roundabout way of expressing =this=

You repeated this below, why? What was your comment about what this
means as apposed to what I explained?

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You say you believe in the word of God,
then what do you with Romans>> 8:2? What does v 3 tell you

And what did v 3 tell you? avoiding another direct question and
closing the door on communication? Then simply do not reply at all to
my post, it is much simper

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's Jesus quoting Moses and saying
that man shall live by the word of God.
he doesn't say man shall live by
the law of sin and death...

Of course not, he was trying to teach them a better way.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but
by every word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.’”
=
Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by
every word of God.’”
==
here Paul, contrasts the law and
faith according -to- the law
==
Romans 10 5
For Moses writes about the righteousness which
is of the law, “The man who does those things
shall live by them.
=
Leviticus 18:5
You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments,
which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
==
he cites 'the law' and says that one would 'live' by them.
not that the law draws man further and further
in to darkness and death.
law of God is -not- law of sin and death.

The mosaic law did not bring life. Do you care to know why it only
brought death? Everyone, and I do mean everyone, except Jesus, failed
the law, the Mosaic Law. And even if you failed in only one are you
were guilty of all the law.

Care to explain why? Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

Post by Timothy Sutter
and below, Paul -cites- _Moses_ to explain 'faith'
==
Romans 10:6-8
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”
(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who
will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ
up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”

Does that say that the law brought righteousness? No.
It is faith that brings righteousness, not the law.

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very near you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it.
==
Paul says that the word, 'the law', is
near you that you may do it, by faith.
not and never that the law is there
to draw you in to darkness and kill you.

Why then did everyone fail the law? Fail the law and you were cursed.
Without the shedding of blood the curse was not lifted.

Post by Timothy Sutter
no,
James clearly explains what Paul means ;
==
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself
tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is
drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then,
when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Again, James was speaking about a man who already had the
righteousness of God in his heart by being Born Again. And the person
who continuously dwelt in sin, that sin would rise up and choke and
kill him, and the end of which is worse than if he had never known
God.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
now, it should be clear, that, this;
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""
=IS= "the law of sin and death" ....
Paul just has an awkward way of expressing =this=.

No, you just have extreme difficulties and are trying to explain it
all away rather than deal with it and seek the truth.

Post by Timothy Sutter
James and the elders all call Paul a "brother" [Acts 21:21-20]
etc

Yes,

Post by Timothy Sutter
no,
=THIS= is the "law of sin and death"
when one is """drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."""
or as Paul would say;
"=another= law working in my body"...

Again you reiterate your confusion.
You are like a well trodden path, a seed that falls on you cannot take
root.

Mark 4

We have already been through these circles as much as an Indy car does
laps.

Time to bring it to a close.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert
Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

==
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

How were they right? They recognized they were sinners and brought the
necessary sacrifices.

And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the
commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless [Luk_1:6].

Their walk commended their salvation. When they committed a sin or
made a mistake, they brought the proper sacrifice.

However, there was tragedy in their lives because they had no child.

And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they
both were now well stricken in years [Luk_1:7].

Here was an old couple who did not have a child. To be childless was
practically a disgrace for a Hebrew woman, and Elisabeth had no
children.

IOW's they were not sinless. Meaning they had sin in their lives and
dealt with it properly. (V 6)

Luk 1:24  And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid
herself five months, saying, 
Luk 1:25  Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he
looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 

Abraham without the Law was considered Righteous, as it was accounted
to him by God.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

==
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

How were they right?

they were both righteous before God, walking in
all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Post by Robert
They recognized they were sinners and brought the
necessary sacrifices.

if that made people righteous then many
many people were righteous before God.

Post by Robert
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the
commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless [Luk_1:6].

that's what it says.

Post by Robert
Their walk commended their salvation. When they committed a sin or
made a mistake, they brought the proper sacrifice.

doesn't say that, but if this made them righteous,
then they were righteous.

Post by Robert
However, there was tragedy in their lives because they had no child.

the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

for just as Elijah; so the father of John;

John who walks in the Spirit of Elijah...

==
James 5

The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed
earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the
land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again,
and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
==

Elijah, a man with a nature like 'ours' is called righteous

and, he even disappears into the heavens, and is
seen with Jesus in the transfiguration.


that lack of child happened for this purpose;

==
John 9:1-3

9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And
His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his
parents, that he was born blind?”

3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that
the works of God should be revealed in him.
==

that the works of God should be shown...

[Robert]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

==
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

How were they right?

they were both righteous before God, walking in
all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Post by Robert
They recognized they were sinners and brought the
necessary sacrifices.

if that made people righteous then many
many people were righteous before God.

That was the way of the righteousness of the Law, not the
righteousness of God which is without sin, perfect and pure.

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the
commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless [Luk_1:6].

that's what it says.

Post by Robert
Their walk commended their salvation. When they committed a sin or
made a mistake, they brought the proper sacrifice.

doesn't say that, but if this made them righteous,
then they were righteous.

It does say that, because they were in and under Judaism, and it was
the Law of God a covenant agreed to by the nation of Israel with God.

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
However, there was tragedy in their lives because they had no child.

the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Had you known the law, a blessing of the law was to have children and
not be childless. So well established was the understanding and
operation of the law that the people judged those that were without a
child as being in error. It was a basic understanding they had.

Post by Robert
for just as Elijah; so the father of John;
John who walks in the Spirit of Elijah...
==
James 5
The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed
earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the
land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again,
and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
==
Elijah, a man with a nature like 'ours' is called righteous

Read and study the OT, you will find many times where God considered a
person righteous, in that they were doing their best in all things. He
never considered them as righteous as himself, although he did ascribe
his righteousness to men and considered them perfect before him even
though they had well known sin. God's Grace establishes it, and
conferred it upon individuals then whereas now all peoples who are
born again do not have righteousness in and of themselves, but are
given by grace the full righteousness of God Himself, in their spirit.

Post by Robert
and, he even disappears into the heavens, and is
seen with Jesus in the transfiguration.
that lack of child happened for this purpose;
==
John 9:1-3
9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And
His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his
parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that
the works of God should be revealed in him.
==
that the works of God should be shown...

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

==
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

How were they right?

they were both righteous before God, walking in
all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Post by Robert
However, there was tragedy in their lives because they had no child.

the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Had you known the law, a blessing of the law was to have children and
not be childless. So well established was the understanding and
operation of the law that the people judged those that were without a
child as being in error. It was a basic understanding they had.

they did have a child, it was just delayed.

they were blameless, childless, and then,
they had the Elijah type character.

showed them not to judge by appearances.


that lack of child happened for this purpose;

==
John 9:1-3

9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And
His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his
parents, that he was born blind?”

3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that
the works of God should be revealed in him.
==


see, the word says that this blind man and his parents did not sin

you say they sinned.

prove the blind man sinned or that his parents sinned

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
that the works of God should be shown...

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Can you name any other soul that fulfilled all
the law, all their life?

==
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

How were they right?

they were both righteous before God, walking in
all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Post by Robert
However, there was tragedy in their lives because they had no child.

the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Had you known the law, a blessing of the law was to have children and
not be childless. So well established was the understanding and
operation of the law that the people judged those that were without a
child as being in error. It was a basic understanding they had.

they did have a child, it was just delayed.

Way, way, past her child bearing years, and all the time she lived
under reproach and had to deal with it.

Post by Timothy Sutter
they were blameless, childless, and then,
they had the Elijah type character.
showed them not to judge by appearances.

All after the fact statements. Why was her husband struck dumb? It
wasn't because of righteousness.

Post by Timothy Sutter
that lack of child happened for this purpose;
==
John 9:1-3
9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And
His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his
parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that
the works of God should be revealed in him.
==
see, the word says that this blind man and his parents did not sin
you say they sinned.

I never did, why lie about it?

Post by Timothy Sutter
prove the blind man sinned or that his parents sinned

Is the word of the Lord insufficient for you?

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
that the works of God should be shown...

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
there are clearly two different influences at work there.
The LAw of God and how it affests Paul's mind
and teh law of sin and death which is
present and works in Paul's Body.
they are in conflict.

Body, Soul, Spirit.

Body our flesh

Soul, our mind, personality, etc.

Spirit. Either dead to God as we are born into this world
Or Alive unto God, a New Spirit, Born Again thus making us a new
creation in Christ Jesus.

Spirit Is were God resides from there our minds renewed. Replacing old
habits with new, old knowledge with truths and new knowledge etc.

Our hearts typically speak to our soul and spirit joined together as a
functioning unit. Whether it be evil or the righteousness of God the
Father himself. A gift from God.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

you say this; [Robert says:]

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law is the law of sin and death.

do you remember saying this?
until and unless you can mend this statement,
there is not point in discussing Hagar because
this is simply as error and it clouds your
understanding of allegorical Hagar.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law

Post by Robert
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body

Post by Robert
of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the

mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Post by Robert
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
I was going to address this, even though I thought you knew.

Knew what? I know that "law of sin and death"
is =not= "Law of Moses" nor "Law of God"
if you know that "law of sin and death" is -not-
"Law of God" nor "Mosaic Law" then all you have
to do is say that you know this.
if you are still convinced that "law of sin and death"
is "Mosaic Law" then you are still in error and you
should mend this in your understanding.
it's very easy, just retract that statement.

It isn't going to happen. You can see in Romans 8:2 That Jesus freed
the Jew and everyone from the Law of Sin and death.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==

Post by Robert
Here you can see that Paul in verse 5 that the motions of sin, which
were by the Law, meaning Mosaic Law brings forth Death.
Sin and Death.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him
who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto
God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which
were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
death.

==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

Post by Robert
Paul reiterates the point that it was the Law that made sin evident.
And without the Law, there was no sin.

people are sinning and dying without the law,
there is sin and there is death from Adam to Moses.

==
Galatians 3:18-20

19 What purpose then does the law serve?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
==

clearly "transgressions" exist prior to the law,
just as "sin" existed prior to the law, and one
could even equate the two, "transgression = sin"

an agreement that was clearly temporary,
but nonetheless, -not- "sin" itself.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Again, sin and death by the Law

no, the law is a tutor and a guard to keep the people
from wandering too far away -in- to 'sin' and from
their goal which is Christ;

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good.

sin deceived him, Paul practically sounds like Eve;

"the serpent tricked me, and i ate"

Paul says; "=sin= _tricked_ me, and i transgressed further"

Paul does not say;

"the law delivered me over to sin, that i should
become a monster worthy of eternal death"

Post by Robert
So then why did something which was good kill us?

people were already in transgression and were
dying without any law in their midst

"sin" was "working death" in Paul, and he, under the
guidance of the law as a tutor and a nanny
says that he became -more- 'sinful'

even though, Paul says that he was "blameless"

==
Philippians 3:6

concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning
the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
==



Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth
in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no
good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is
present with me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is
in my members.

and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind

sort of like a heroine addict rueing the day
he ever started chasing teh little red dragon around.

he may sit there and ponder to himself;

"i know in my mind that i would be better off not
injecting this dope in my arms, but the pull is
too strong and i cannot give it up on my own,
i need help"

now, "The Law" is -not- a shot of heroin given
to -make- one rob cheat and steal and do murder
and lie and become another God in your mind

no.

The Law continually sits there and keeps saying
that cheating and stealing and murdering and
lying and having another God is -killing- you
even after you've turned a totally deaf ear to -it-
in deference and favor to that shot you like so much.

and in one's mind, they may still be able to
comprehend that such behaviors are bad and bad
for them and killing them and not just others,
but the pull is too strong, can't walk away.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
Under the Mosaic Law, forgives came by the Blood sacrifice for Sin,
every year, it forgave for the previous year, and covered you like an
insurance policy if you happened to die before your next sacrifice.

nonsense, this makes the law a liscence and this is precisely
why YHWH says that he does not delight in the blood of bulls
and goats, because -once- should have been enough if they had
taken is all to heart, but it was not the law that failed,
but the people who failed.


==
Isaiah 1:11-13;16-18

11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says YHWH. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats. 12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
;
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of
your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow. 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall
be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
===

and Israel was exposed to teh same spirit.

===
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that
all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through
the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and
in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all
drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that
spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for
their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent
that we should not desire after evil things as they also
desired. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of
them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat
and drink, and rose up to play.”
===

funny how Paul is saying that ancient Israel
is an example for those of this household of Faith
so as to not follow a bad example.

Post by Robert
The Mosaic Law came with Blessings and Cursing's. Not one person who
was Jewish lived a sinless life, out side of Christ.

==
2 Samuel 22:23-25

23 For all His judgments were before me; And as for
His statutes, I did not depart from them. 24 I was
also blameless before Him, And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according
to my righteousness,According to my cleanness in His eyes.
==

==
Luke 1:5-7

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking
in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren,
and they were both well advanced in years.
==

"blameless"

Post by Robert
Israel could not attain to righteousness because they, like some
churches operate by works of the law and not by faith,

now how in the world can a people operate by works of the law
and become more sinful -because- of the same law?

some of them seemd to do as the nanny told them to do,
but harbored all sorts of ill -thinking- in their
minds against their fellows.

==
Matthew 23:25-26

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you
cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they
are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee,
first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that
the outside of them may be clean also.
==
Luke 11:39-40

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside
of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed
and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the
outside make the inside also?
==

"The Law" did =not= _make_ the "inside of the cup" filthy...

you have to realize that Paul is -not- saying that it did.


Robert says;

Post by Robert
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness,
hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it
were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Post by Robert
But it had nothing to do with your statement about
two distinct covenants with Hagar and Sarah.

it most certainly does have something
to do with allegorical Hagar and sarah.

Robert says;

Post by Robert
That was not your original statement, nor your original premise. And
you never came to grips with Sinai and Jerusalem.

of course it does, i said Hagar was
a binding contract and not a slavery.

Jesus says that those were slaves
to 'sin' not slaves to the law;

==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==

Post by Robert

if you think that Israel was slave
to the law of God, you are mistaken.

Are you mixing up bondage and slavery? as in
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

the 'slavery' is to 'sin' that 'law' which is at
work in the members of your body, the flesh.

Post by Robert
No one forced the Jew into the Mosaic Law, they, the Israelites all
voted on it after it was read to them, They signed on to the covenant
and pledged theyselves.

and that contract is a guarding tutor, a nanny
added because they were -already- transgressing,
in order to keep them in line until Christ appears.
Galatians 3:23-25


=how= can a tutor meant to bring one to Christ
educe in a man like Paul, -worse- behavior?

Paul said that "sin" =deceived= him

Paul does not say that the law placed sin in him
he says sin tricked him into rebelling against
the law that was meant as a good tutor to
bring him closer to God.

Post by Robert

if you think that the Sinai contract
was an entry in to a slavery imposed
by YHWH God on Israel
you are mistaken.
Clarify this, or say no more.

It was a mutual contract, ratified by the nation of Israel.

of course it was a mutual contract

and there was no "fine print" of which anyone was
not aware but which -caused- slavery to sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
This is as far as I got in this post, so I'll let you mull this over.
It is spoken of this way in the NT. I'll get back to a project I am
on.

Sinai -is- a =binding= legal contract that was freely
entered in to and agreed upon by all of Israel.
==
Exodus 19:7-9
So Moses came and called for the elders of the people,
and laid before them all these words which YHWH commanded him.
Then all the people answered together and said,
"All that YHWH has spoken we will do."
==
Israel entered into this contract, and are to be =bound=
by it, and ,, and they turned around and disregarded it

That "bound" is the bondage spoken of. Not the slavery you speak of.

well, at least you're getting closer to the truth.
yes, the binding nature of the agreement is that
to which Israel was bound,

and the slavery to 'sin' already exists
and people already die because of it.

Post by Robert

=Sinai= is not the -slavery- that the people need to be freed from
the law of sin and death which is inherited from Adam
is the slavery from which the people must find release.
mind you, a verse you may like to quote;
just look;
===
Hebrews 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would
have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He
says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a

new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not
according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when

Post by Robert

I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because
they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the
Lord.
===
notice; "finding fault with =them= /// Who? Israel
"because =they= did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord."

They divorced him, first the ten tribes and then the rest later on.

the =fault= found was not in the contract and the law,

but in the people

Post by Robert

"""Because Israel did not continue in YHWH's covenant,
YHWH found fault with them and disregarded them"""
you'd practically have YHWH God inscribing the
law of sin and death on the hearts of people upon
whom it was already etched in a stony heart that
was already darkened because of the garden incident.
etc

In Christ were are freed from the law written in tablets of stone, and
he writes his new laws in our hearts of flesh.

what "new" laws?

==
Hebrews 8

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws in their mind and write them on
their hearts; and I will be their God, and they
shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach
his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,
‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from
the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins I will remember no more.”
==

God hasn't changed

==
Jeremiah 9:13

And the Lord said, “Because they have forsaken
My law which I set before them, and have not
obeyed My voice, nor walked according to it,
==

"My law" is still "My law"

you would say that God writes the
law of sin and death on 'our' hearts.

Post by Robert
The are more like the
desire of our hearts to do, out of and because of Love.

you say that the -written- "law" places sin and death in to people

now you'd be saying that God will place sin and death in to people
aside from a written law by direct spiritual interaction.

and such -is- silly and absurd.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the
Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded
is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it
is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who
are in the flesh cannot please God.


law not the enslavement, carnal mind the enslavement, rather simple.

Post by Robert
How many times must this be brought to your remembrance? Did God Lie
here? Did he contradict Himself here? No. The Mosaic law is not a law
written on our hearts by God as foretold in the scriptures.

the law of sin and death is an other law working in Paul's body[members]

Post by Robert
So just what part of these verses do you not understand.

it's clear to me thatthe law of sin and death is an attribute
of the flesh and not a code of law offered up by God.

man is freed from that as he walks in the Spirit.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Sorry, but if you are not born again there is no warfare going on.
Your spirit is evil, opposed to the knowledge of God, and it is your
natural being.
The sin nature of the flesh is opposed to the new creation of the
Spirit of those who are born again. Which is why we must walk in/with
the Spirit and consider the desires of the flesh dead, and walk in the
newness of Life.

yet, you say this about Paul;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

so, you cannot possibly be saying that Paul is delighting in
the law of God in his inward man before he is born again
as he describes in Romans 7 and 8 .

Paul is warring with the law of his mind there.

you are confusing yourself.

you'll have to pick one or the other.

either Paul speaks of a person who is not
born again in Romans 7 and 8

or he is speaking of one who is born again.

if you say he is not born again there, he delights
in teh law of his mind, and you are confused.

if he is born again there, you say he is dead
to God there and you are still confused.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

That is your mistake, totally. The law is to instruct and magnify what
sin is. It never, ever, instructed anyone on how to sin, nor did it
put any desire to sin in your being.

you say that Paul believes that the law taught him sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

Yes, because of the fleshly desires within them. The had to
consciously follow the law. It was not a natural desire of their
being, like it is with a person who is Born Again.

you think no one else but these had any success at all"

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

and you would suggest that a person walking in the
law in contrariness to their flesh sin nature was not
experiencing a conflict with God's Spirit who was in their midst?

of course they wre, that is why many became
ill and had various skin disorders. [isaiah 1]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the
law.

this in no way implies that God's law placed 'sin' into anyone.
you would be walking contrary to Jame's dictum that no one is
free to claim that God is tempting him.

Post by Robert
The law was a light, magnifying the sin in their lives, it was weak,

the flesh is weak, and the carnal mind of man has dificulty
comprehending the law, which was veiled to them like Moses' face.

Post by Robert
in that whatever man dwells on in their minds they do more of it. It
is part and parcel with the rebellion that is in man. Tell a man not
to do something, and out of spite they will do it.

when God says "no" God means "no"

God is not saying no and meaning yes, this is a slander
to accuse God of reverse psychology, for, in that regard,
you make God a liar.

you make God the author of confusion.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Yet when Christ appeared, they killed him. The curse of the law was
manifold, and went from mild to harsh, and the more one sinned the
harsher the curse. If they followed the law they were blessed.
Believers in Jesus Christ were freed from all that, first the Jew,
then the Gentile (who were never under the law, and Paul mentions that
as well.)

and yet, Paul gets all upset with the corinthian
man who is sleeping with his father's wife.

Paul hasn't abandoned the law. he delights in it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

2:13 Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect
and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because
he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining
justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But
since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So
this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than
something that is capable of human attainment.

you mean like John's parents?

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

you think they were the only ones?


the initial little ones who were to
enter the promised land were clean;

==
Deuteronomy 1:39

‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say
will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil,
they shall go in there; to them I will give it,
and they shall possess it.
==

Post by Robert
It was never God's intention that anyone be saved by the law.

it was never God's intention that sin
would enter in to a person -by- the law.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

Yet you claimed that the commandment of the forbidden fruit was the
law of sin and death. Have you changed your mind?

it is the source of this principle for that is
where sin and death enter into human beings

from the knowledge of good and evil.

Post by Robert
There was no sin and death reigning in this world until Adam ate the
forbidden fruit. See your verse below.

no kidding. sin and death entered with Adam.

that's exactly what it says below.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==
you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

It wasn't the knowledge of Good and evil that caused Adam to die, it
was the doing of what was forbidden for him to do.

no, there was a taint to that tree, and that's
where Adam picked up the law of sin and death.

Post by Robert
Otherwise you would have to say that God also is evil, since
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of

no, the correct translation is that the
man became another =away from= God.

because, i welcome you to get a hebrew bible or an interlinear
hebrew translation and scour for the preposition "mmnu"

it is found in genesis 3:22 and commonly translated as "of"

but the very same word, masoretic vowel pointers and all,
is also found in Deuteronomy 12:32 and 28:31 and
translated as "away =from=" and the same word form
with a minor different vowel pointer is found
in Exodus 8:8 and is also translated as "away=from="
mind you, vowel pointers are not in the original but
added by the Masoretes, but, they did not -change-
the word at all, so look here first;

"mmnu" emphasized by me;

===
Deuteronomy 12:32

“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it;
you shall not add to it nor take =AWAY FROM= it.
=
Deuteronomy 28:31

<...>your donkey shall be violently taken =AWAY FROM= before you, <...>
=
Exodus 8:8

Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said,
“Entreat the Lord that He may take =AWAY= the frogs
=FROM= me and from my people; and I will let the
people go, that they may sacrifice to the Lord.”
===

and so, the better translation of Genessis 3:22 becomes;


"Behold, "The Man" has become another [AWAY] _From_ 'Us' [Gen 3:22]


and basically this -fits- so much better
with the actual happenings in the story.


the same "from" as Moses says, you shall
-not- take away "from" the words of this law,
neither shall you add to it.

and "from" is just about always speaking of a thing
that is taken away from something else, even if it
is a thing eaten -from- a particular tree.

one plucks a piece of fruit away -from- a tree,
and when you do, that piece of fruit is no
longer part of that tree, and generally
begins to decay.

so, even if one suggests that "The Man"

was pushed or pulled -away- =from= YHWH

"The Man" is still, -away- _from_ YHWH

and -not- "One -of- Us"


"One -of- Us" is the very =lie= the serpent told to "the Man"

[yeah yeah yeah, i already said Adam and
Eve could be referred to as "the man"
even if they did become distinct]

YHWH never said;

"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,
you shall become like YHWH and i don't want that"


no no no, YHWH said;


"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,

To Die you shall Die"


in other words, "you shall become DEAD"


and we see how the serpent's form, was actually -changed-
by YHWH so as to reflect the change that had already occurred
in the serpent's heart, becoming 'crafty' and not of the Truth.


oh, and one other little bit;

see, it says that YHWH caused to sprout a variety of
trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food,

and -then- it menations this "Tree [that] Lives"

being in the midst of the garden,

and -then- the mention is made of this 'other' tree that
was not good for foood but called the tree of the 'perception'
of good and bad which was able to make one DEAD if eaten.

now, here the /order/ matters

because, if tree with the perception of good and bad, came -second,
after the trees which were good for food and pleasing to teh eye,
then, one may infer quite readily that YHWH caused -that one- to
"sprout" as well as the others, but, in that the tree of Life,
or the tree that -already- lives, is placed second, between
the trees pleasing to the eye and good for food,

we need no suggest that this tree of perception of good and bad,

was among those caused to sprout by YHWH,

and this is because, this tree that lives,

the tree of Life, is already alive and lives forevermore
and need not be -caused- to sprout and is even associated
with the wisdom and inherent perpetual life of YHWH.

so, you have, YHWH causing trees which are good
for food and pleasing to the eye, to sprout,

and, then, speaking of a tree that simply -lives-
which is already in the midst of the garden

and then, speaking of this other
tree which is not good for food

of which the serpent used lies to cause them to eat of it.

Post by Robert
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of
Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

no, God not evil, but man did -not- become like God, but =away from= God.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;
==
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the

beginning.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
Galatians 4:8-10
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

Sorry, they do not parallel each other. Peter speaks to those who were
born again and turned away from God, renouncing Jesus, and living in a
life of sin, and that their end will be worse for them then if they
had never been born again.

nope, those false teachers were in error and they
are slaves of =corruption= not of any law of moses.

Post by Robert
Paul is speaking to the Galatians as I had mentioned before who were
delivered of the pagan rites and rotes of religion, and are now
turning to the Jewish rites and rotes, being deceived by the weak
Jewish believer who found it difficult to give up the old ways feeling
that they had to do something to earn their righteousness. when in
Jesus the gift of righteousness is totally free.

the slavery is to corruption and fleshly sin and not to any law of moses.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.
Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

That thought is a byproduct of your misunderstandings.

it's what Jesus says as well, see John 8:31 and actually read it for once.

Jesus clearly says that those are slaves to sin, not to law of moses.
==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.


notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;
i said this;
"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.
sin and death entered through Adam and spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

Yet God is alive and not dead, rendering your statement moot.

Adam is dead and all of his offspring have inherited
the law of sin and death and sin and die.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

Not the law of, but sin and death only.

it is a principle, the principle of
sin and death and it came through Adam.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

Paul Does. It is not something I made up. You read it, yet you deny
it.

not so, he calls that "another law
which is at work in my members"

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

The law reveals evil. It is for sinners, not the righteous. It told
you part of what it takes to be Good, but no one outside of Christ
could do it.

still not seeing John's parents.

Post by Robert
All the scripture I gave you showing that the law
magnifies evil, of what use is it to you? You put the blame for that
understanding on me, not the scripture of God which I presented to
you.

the slavery is to sin and the corruption of the flesh.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul very clearly says;
==
Romans 7
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===

Lets put these verses into today's language yet pure to the Greek.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I
doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which
dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that
when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me
and I am subject to its insistent demands.

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:22 For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost
self [with my new nature]. [Psa_1:2]

so now you have Paul speaking about the law in
his new nature only just yesterday, you say this;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

you are tangled up in confusion.

you have Paul delighting in his new nature
and dead to God ant the same time.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:23 But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at
war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to
the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh].

the law of sin and death that dwells in his body... bingo, you got it.

not a written code of ethics or anything of that sort.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will
release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
Rom 7:25 O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed
One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart,
serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

two different principles, one the law of God
and one the appetites and wills of the flesh

your own translation sees it better than you are.

read it.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

I take offense at your false statements. You have been operating with
prejudice as yet unfounded. You blithely ignore what I say as well as
what the scripture says and like a choo choo train just keep chugging
along.

Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws. Adam lived a full 2,500+ years before the Mosaic Law was
given. Also, there were no Jews before the Mosaic law was given to the
tribes of Israel, in the desert.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

You also chose to ignore the statements of Paul in regards to the
Mosaic Law being a law of Sin and Death. Chose to ignore the reasons
behind it, choosing to somehow construe that the statement of Jesus
who said that those you live a life of sin are slaves to sin as to
somehow negate what Paul and others taught in regards to the Jewish
Law. By doing so you make the word of God contrary to itself by your
lack of understanding, and God has said, "I do not lie", yet your
staunch positioning of your private beliefs say that in fact that God
does lie, since his word is in direct conflict with itself.

I have asked you to ponder/meditate on what the word says before
replying, many times. To reconsider your thoughts and understandings
which are contrary to the word of God. All to no avail.

As to the veil, it has been ripped in two, and whereas only the High
Priest after meeting the demands of ritual law could enter in, and
then once a year, when Christ died and fulfilled the law, the veil was
ripped and the Holy of Holies made accessible to all who have been
Born Again. Who were made the righteousness of God, Granted to them by
his mercy, and no longer by doing the deeds of the law, which also
included annual blood sacrificing as a full part of it. Without that
sacrifice for sin they had no righteousness regardless of their other
deeds.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==

as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat

it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.



==
Romans 2:11-13

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==

people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

==
Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==


you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;

==
2 Peter 2:18-20

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped[a] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
=
Galatians 4:8-10

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.

Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;

i said this;

"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

Paul very clearly says;

==
Romans 7

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===


'another law in my body,' is -not- teh law of moses.


Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness
of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as
slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more
lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness.


the law is simply not a slavery, you make it that, but the
Apostles clearly say that the slavery is to the flesh, and
the law merely points this out with no question.


teh new birth kills the old flesh nature and replaces it with
a spirit man who -can- understand and comprehend the Law
of God and walk in it.

look at David, a man after God's own heart

and how he cherishes the command and seeks to walk in it.


Acts 13:21-23

22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king,
to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son
of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’
23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise,
God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—



Psalm 1:1-3

1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.


Psalm 94:11-13

11 The Lord knows the thoughts of man,
That they are futile.
12 Blessed is the man whom You instruct, O Lord,
And teach out of Your law,
13 That You may give him rest from the days of adversity,
Until the pit is dug for the wicked.


Psalm 40:7-9

7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”


Psalm 37:30-32

30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.



Psalm 19:7-8

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;



Psalm 119:1-3

119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the Lord!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
3 They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.


Psalm 119:33-35

33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall keep it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.


Psalm 119:71-73
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.

73 Your hands have made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.



Psalm 119:77

Let Your tender mercies come to me,
that I may live; For Your law is my delight.



Psalm 119:92

Unless Your law had been my delight,
I would then have perished in my affliction.


Psalm 119:97

Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.

Psalm 119:109
My life is continually in my hand,
Yet I do not forget Your law.

Psalm 119:113

I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law.

Psalm 119:126
It is time for You to act, O Lord, For they
have regarded Your law as void.


Psalm 119:142

Your righteousness is an everlasting
righteousness, And Your law is truth.


Psalm 119:165

Great peace have those who love Your law,
And nothing causes them to stumble.

Psalm 119:174

I long for Your salvation, O Lord,
And Your law is my delight.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death. 
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 

How many times must this be brought to your remembrance? Did God Lie
here? Did he contradict Himself here? No. The Mosaic law is not a law
written on our hearts by God as foretold in the scriptures.

So just what part of these verses do you not understand.

Post by Timothy Sutter
man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Sorry, but if you are not born again there is no warfare going on.
Your spirit is evil, opposed to the knowledge of God, and it is your
natural being.

The sin nature of the flesh is opposed to the new creation of the
Spirit of those who are born again. Which is why we must walk in/with
the Spirit and consider the desires of the flesh dead, and walk in the
newness of Life.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

That is your mistake, totally. The law is to instruct and magnify what
sin is. It never, ever, instructed anyone on how to sin, nor did it
put any desire to sin in your being.

Post by Timothy Sutter
at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

Yes, because of the fleshly desires within them. The had to
consciously follow the law. It was not a natural desire of their
being, like it is with a person who is Born Again.

Post by Timothy Sutter
not and never that this 'nanny' is instructing
the child in how to be a spoiled little brat
it's the same Paul, and in one place he describes
how he reacted to the tutelage of this nanny,
and in another place he ascribes -no- responsibilty
-to- that nanny for -his- actions.

Yes, and that was because like all men he was born in sin. He was a
Jew, a Pharisee of the Pharisee's. Well trained, very religious and in
rigid discipline of his beliefs.

Then he met Jesus face to face, and was born again with a new spirit,
no longer under the tablets of stone. No longer beholden to his nanny.
Fact of the matter, the time of the nanny was over for the time being
and the next 2,000 years. You can read about it in the NT.

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

1Co_15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the
law.

The law was a light, magnifying the sin in their lives, it was weak,
in that whatever man dwells on in their minds they do more of it. It
is part and parcel with the rebellion that is in man. Tell a man not
to do something, and out of spite they will do it.

Post by Timothy Sutter
if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Yet when Christ appeared, they killed him. The curse of the law was
manifold, and went from mild to harsh, and the more one sinned the
harsher the curse. If they followed the law they were blessed.

Believers in Jesus Christ were freed from all that, first the Jew,
then the Gentile (who were never under the law, and Paul mentions that
as well.)

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

2:13 Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect
and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because
he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining
justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But
since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So
this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than
something that is capable of human attainment.

It was never God's intention that anyone be saved by the law. Even if
a person could keep it perfectly from this day forward, he still would
not be justified, because God requires that which is past. So when
verse 13 says that doers of the law will be justified, we must
understand it as meaning that the law demands obedience, and if anyone
could produce perfect obedience from the day he was born, he would be
justified. But the cold, hard fact is that no one can produce this.

The Gentiles did not have the law, no curse of it and no blessing from
it. People died physically as a result of Adams sin, and their spirits
were dead to God. Today, the body of a believer, conceived in sin,
dies a natural death but the spirit being alive to God departs the
body and goes straight to heaven to be with Jesus. Not so for the
unregenerate, their body soul and spirit goes to Haiti's.

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

Yet you claimed that the commandment of the forbidden fruit was the
law of sin and death. Have you changed your mind?

There was no sin and death reigning in this world until Adam ate the
forbidden fruit. See your verse below.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==
you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

It wasn't the knowledge of Good and evil that caused Adam to die, it
was the doing of what was forbidden for him to do.

Otherwise you would have to say that God also is evil, since
Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and
take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 
Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of
Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;
==
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped[a] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
=
Galatians 4:8-10
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

Sorry, they do not parallel each other. Peter speaks to those who were
born again and turned away from God, renouncing Jesus, and living in a
life of sin, and that their end will be worse for them then if they
had never been born again.

Paul is speaking to the Galatians as I had mentioned before who were
delivered of the pagan rites and rotes of religion, and are now
turning to the Jewish rites and rotes, being deceived by the weak
Jewish believer who found it difficult to give up the old ways feeling
that they had to do something to earn their righteousness. when in
Jesus the gift of righteousness is totally free.

Post by Timothy Sutter
you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.
Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

That thought is a byproduct of your misunderstandings.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;
i said this;
"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

Yet God is alive and not dead, rendering your statement moot.

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

Not the law of, but sin and death only.

Post by Timothy Sutter
you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

Paul Does. It is not something I made up. You read it, yet you deny
it.

Post by Timothy Sutter
it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

The law reveals evil. It is for sinners, not the righteous. It told
you part of what it takes to be Good, but no one outside of Christ
could do it. All the scripture I gave you showing that the law
magnifies evil, of what use is it to you? You put the blame for that
understanding on me, not the scripture of God which I presented to
you.

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul very clearly says;
==
Romans 7
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===

Lets put these verses into today's language yet pure to the Greek.

Rom 7:20  Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I
doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which
dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul]. 
Rom 7:21  So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that
when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me
and I am subject to its insistent demands. 
Rom 7:22  For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost
self [with my new nature]. [Psa_1:2] 
Rom 7:23  But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at
war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to
the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh]. 
Rom 7:24  O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will
release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death? 
Rom 7:25  O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed
One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart,
serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. 

Now ask yourself, why is it that to the Jew there is a "law of sin"
but not to the Gentile? What is it that makes all the difference in
the world?

And why is it that the Born Again Believer is under no such law?

Post by Timothy Sutter
'another law in my body,' is -not- teh law of moses.
Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness
of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as
slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more
lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness.
the law is simply not a slavery, you make it that, but the
Apostles clearly say that the slavery is to the flesh, and
the law merely points this out with no question.

Yes the law magnifies sin and without the law there is no sin. You are
not putting those pieces of the puzzle in place.

Post by Timothy Sutter
teh new birth kills the old flesh nature and replaces it with
a spirit man who -can- understand and comprehend the Law
of God and walk in it.

Incorrect. The old flesh nature is still there but to be counted as
dead. It is only and solely the Spirit of man that is made new. Making
the man a new creature in Christ Jesus whose mind must be renewed. Who
then redeems the time and the actions of his body if he walks in the
spirit.

Post by Timothy Sutter
look at David, a man after God's own heart
and how he cherishes the command and seeks to walk in it.

Yes, David, a chief sinner. Do you really know why God thought of him
so highly? David walked as a Jew. He followed all the Mosaic Laws,

Post by Timothy Sutter
Acts 13:21-23
22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king,
to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son
of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’
23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise,
God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—

<snipped for brevities sake>
David lived under the Old Covenant. Not the New Covenant.

Are you preferring to live under the Old Covenant? Is that your point,
that what Jesus did isn't for you or not good enough?

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Paul makes it very clear;

=
Rom 7:22-23

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=


and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.

simple

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Paul makes it very clear;
=
Rom 7:22-23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
=
and this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a written list of regulations but the
demanding actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
simple

You have turned into a non responsive Parrot, like some here. Talking
without communicating.

May the Lord God open your eyes to his truth.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the
Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded
is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it
is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who
are in the flesh cannot please God.


law not the enslavement, carnal mind the enslavement, rather simple.

Post by Robert
How many times must this be brought to your remembrance? Did God Lie
here? Did he contradict Himself here? No. The Mosaic law is not a law
written on our hearts by God as foretold in the scriptures.

the law of sin and death is an other law working in Paul's body[members]

Post by Robert
So just what part of these verses do you not understand.

it's clear to me thatthe law of sin and death is an attribute
of the flesh and not a code of law offered up by God.

man is freed from that as he walks in the Spirit.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Sorry, but if you are not born again there is no warfare going on.
Your spirit is evil, opposed to the knowledge of God, and it is your
natural being.
The sin nature of the flesh is opposed to the new creation of the
Spirit of those who are born again. Which is why we must walk in/with
the Spirit and consider the desires of the flesh dead, and walk in the
newness of Life.

yet, you say this about Paul;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

so, you cannot possibly be saying that Paul is delighting in
the law of God in his inward man before he is born again
as he describes in Romans 7 and 8 .

Paul is warring with the law of his mind there.

you are confusing yourself.

you'll have to pick one or the other.

either Paul speaks of a person who is not
born again in Romans 7 and 8

or he is speaking of one who is born again.

if you say he is not born again there, he delights
in teh law of his mind, and you are confused.

if he is born again there, you say he is dead
to God there and you are still confused.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

That is your mistake, totally. The law is to instruct and magnify what
sin is. It never, ever, instructed anyone on how to sin, nor did it
put any desire to sin in your being.

you say that Paul believes that the law taught him sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

Yes, because of the fleshly desires within them. The had to
consciously follow the law. It was not a natural desire of their
being, like it is with a person who is Born Again.

you think no one else but these had any success at all"

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

and you would suggest that a person walking in the
law in contrariness to their flesh sin nature was not
experiencing a conflict with God's Spirit who was in their midst?

of course they wre, that is why many became
ill and had various skin disorders. [isaiah 1]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the
law.

this in no way implies that God's law placed 'sin' into anyone.
you would be walking contrary to Jame's dictum that no one is
free to claim that God is tempting him.

Post by Robert
The law was a light, magnifying the sin in their lives, it was weak,

the flesh is weak, and the carnal mind of man has dificulty
comprehending the law, which was veiled to them like Moses' face.

Post by Robert
in that whatever man dwells on in their minds they do more of it. It
is part and parcel with the rebellion that is in man. Tell a man not
to do something, and out of spite they will do it.

when God says "no" God means "no"

God is not saying no and meaning yes, this is a slander
to accuse God of reverse psychology, for, in that regard,
you make God a liar.

you make God the author of confusion.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Yet when Christ appeared, they killed him. The curse of the law was
manifold, and went from mild to harsh, and the more one sinned the
harsher the curse. If they followed the law they were blessed.
Believers in Jesus Christ were freed from all that, first the Jew,
then the Gentile (who were never under the law, and Paul mentions that
as well.)

and yet, Paul gets all upset with the corinthian
man who is sleeping with his father's wife.

Paul hasn't abandoned the law. he delights in it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

2:13 Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect
and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because
he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining
justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But
since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So
this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than
something that is capable of human attainment.

you mean like John's parents?

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

you think they were the only ones?


the initial little ones who were to
enter the promised land were clean;

==
Deuteronomy 1:39

‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say
will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil,
they shall go in there; to them I will give it,
and they shall possess it.
==

Post by Robert
It was never God's intention that anyone be saved by the law.

it was never God's intention that sin
would enter in to a person -by- the law.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

Yet you claimed that the commandment of the forbidden fruit was the
law of sin and death. Have you changed your mind?

it is the source of this principle for that is
where sin and death enter into human beings

from the knowledge of good and evil.

Post by Robert
There was no sin and death reigning in this world until Adam ate the
forbidden fruit. See your verse below.

no kidding. sin and death entered with Adam.

that's exactly what it says below.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==
you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

It wasn't the knowledge of Good and evil that caused Adam to die, it
was the doing of what was forbidden for him to do.

no, there was a taint to that tree, and that's
where Adam picked up the law of sin and death.

Post by Robert
Otherwise you would have to say that God also is evil, since
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of

no, the correct translation is that the
man became another =away from= God.

because, i welcome you to get a hebrew bible or an interlinear
hebrew translation and scour for the preposition "mmnu"

it is found in genesis 3:22 and commonly translated as "of"

but the very same word, masoretic vowel pointers and all,
is also found in Deuteronomy 12:32 and 28:31 and
translated as "away =from=" and the same word form
with a minor different vowel pointer is found
in Exodus 8:8 and is also translated as "away=from="
mind you, vowel pointers are not in the original but
added by the Masoretes, but, they did not -change-
the word at all, so look here first;

"mmnu" emphasized by me;

===
Deuteronomy 12:32

“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it;
you shall not add to it nor take =AWAY FROM= it.
=
Deuteronomy 28:31

<...>your donkey shall be violently taken =AWAY FROM= before you, <...>
=
Exodus 8:8

Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said,
“Entreat the Lord that He may take =AWAY= the frogs
=FROM= me and from my people; and I will let the
people go, that they may sacrifice to the Lord.”
===

and so, the better translation of Genessis 3:22 becomes;


"Behold, "The Man" has become another [AWAY] _From_ 'Us' [Gen 3:22]


and basically this -fits- so much better
with the actual happenings in the story.


the same "from" as Moses says, you shall
-not- take away "from" the words of this law,
neither shall you add to it.

and "from" is just about always speaking of a thing
that is taken away from something else, even if it
is a thing eaten -from- a particular tree.

one plucks a piece of fruit away -from- a tree,
and when you do, that piece of fruit is no
longer part of that tree, and generally
begins to decay.

so, even if one suggests that "The Man"

was pushed or pulled -away- =from= YHWH

"The Man" is still, -away- _from_ YHWH

and -not- "One -of- Us"


"One -of- Us" is the very =lie= the serpent told to "the Man"

[yeah yeah yeah, i already said Adam and
Eve could be referred to as "the man"
even if they did become distinct]

YHWH never said;

"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,
you shall become like YHWH and i don't want that"


no no no, YHWH said;


"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,

To Die you shall Die"


in other words, "you shall become DEAD"


and we see how the serpent's form, was actually -changed-
by YHWH so as to reflect the change that had already occurred
in the serpent's heart, becoming 'crafty' and not of the Truth.


oh, and one other little bit;

see, it says that YHWH caused to sprout a variety of
trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food,

and -then- it menations this "Tree [that] Lives"

being in the midst of the garden,

and -then- the mention is made of this 'other' tree that
was not good for foood but called the tree of the 'perception'
of good and bad which was able to make one DEAD if eaten.

now, here the /order/ matters

because, if tree with the perception of good and bad, came -second,
after the trees which were good for food and pleasing to teh eye,
then, one may infer quite readily that YHWH caused -that one- to
"sprout" as well as the others, but, in that the tree of Life,
or the tree that -already- lives, is placed second, between
the trees pleasing to the eye and good for food,

we need no suggest that this tree of perception of good and bad,

was among those caused to sprout by YHWH,

and this is because, this tree that lives,

the tree of Life, is already alive and lives forevermore
and need not be -caused- to sprout and is even associated
with the wisdom and inherent perpetual life of YHWH.

so, you have, YHWH causing trees which are good
for food and pleasing to the eye, to sprout,

and, then, speaking of a tree that simply -lives-
which is already in the midst of the garden

and then, speaking of this other
tree which is not good for food

of which the serpent used lies to cause them to eat of it.

Post by Robert
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of
Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

no, God not evil, but man did -not- become like God, but =away from= God.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;
==
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
=
Galatians 4:8-10
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

Sorry, they do not parallel each other. Peter speaks to those who were
born again and turned away from God, renouncing Jesus, and living in a
life of sin, and that their end will be worse for them then if they
had never been born again.

nope, those false teachers were in error and they
are slaves of =corruption= not of any law of moses.

Post by Robert
Paul is speaking to the Galatians as I had mentioned before who were
delivered of the pagan rites and rotes of religion, and are now
turning to the Jewish rites and rotes, being deceived by the weak
Jewish believer who found it difficult to give up the old ways feeling
that they had to do something to earn their righteousness. when in
Jesus the gift of righteousness is totally free.

the slavery is to corruption and fleshly sin and not to any law of moses.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.
Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

That thought is a byproduct of your misunderstandings.

it's what Jesus says as well, see John 8:31 and actually read it for once.

Jesus clearly says that those are slaves to sin, not to law of moses.
==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.


notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;
i said this;
"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.
sin and death entered through Adam and spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

Yet God is alive and not dead, rendering your statement moot.

Adam is dead and all of his offspring have inherited
the law of sin and death and sin and die.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

Not the law of, but sin and death only.

it is a principle, the principle of
sin and death and it came through Adam.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

Paul Does. It is not something I made up. You read it, yet you deny
it.

not so, he calls that "another law
which is at work in my members"

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

The law reveals evil. It is for sinners, not the righteous. It told
you part of what it takes to be Good, but no one outside of Christ
could do it.

still not seeing John's parents.

Post by Robert
All the scripture I gave you showing that the law
magnifies evil, of what use is it to you? You put the blame for that
understanding on me, not the scripture of God which I presented to
you.

the slavery is to sin and the corruption of the flesh.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul very clearly says;
==
Romans 7
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===

Lets put these verses into today's language yet pure to the Greek.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I
doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which
dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that
when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me
and I am subject to its insistent demands.

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:22 For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost
self [with my new nature]. [Psa_1:2]

so now you have Paul speaking about the law in
his new nature only just yesterday, you say this;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

you are tangled up in confusion.

you have Paul delighting in his new nature
and dead to God ant the same time.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:23 But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at
war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to
the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh].

the law of sin and death that dwells in his body... bingo, you got it.

not a written code of ethics or anything of that sort.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will
release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
Rom 7:25 O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed
One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart,
serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

two different principles, one the law of God
and one the appetites and wills of the flesh

your own translation sees it better than you are.

read it.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and James in no way despises the law as you do;
james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if
you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the
law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who
said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”
Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as
those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment
is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
=
james 3
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil
of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and
judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of
the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able
to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
and knowing that James and Paul are brothers,
it is not safe to assume that Paul despises
the law as you do.

A Christian believer is NOT under the Mosaic Law.

the Mosaic Law is -not- the law of sin and death,
this is your misunderstanding.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the
Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded
is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it
is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who
are in the flesh cannot please God.


law not the enslavement, carnal mind the enslavement, rather simple.

Post by Robert
How many times must this be brought to your remembrance? Did God Lie
here? Did he contradict Himself here? No. The Mosaic law is not a law
written on our hearts by God as foretold in the scriptures.

the law of sin and death is an other law working in Paul's body[members]

Post by Robert
So just what part of these verses do you not understand.

it's clear to me thatthe law of sin and death is an attribute
of the flesh and not a code of law offered up by God.

man is freed from that as he walks in the Spirit.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
man is slaved to the flesh and its desires
which war against the Spirit.

Sorry, but if you are not born again there is no warfare going on.
Your spirit is evil, opposed to the knowledge of God, and it is your
natural being.
The sin nature of the flesh is opposed to the new creation of the
Spirit of those who are born again. Which is why we must walk in/with
the Spirit and consider the desires of the flesh dead, and walk in the
newness of Life.

yet, you say this about Paul;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

so, you cannot possibly be saying that Paul is delighting in
the law of God in his inward man before he is born again
as he describes in Romans 7 and 8 .

Paul is warring with the law of his mind there.

you are confusing yourself.

you'll have to pick one or the other.

either Paul speaks of a person who is not
born again in Romans 7 and 8

or he is speaking of one who is born again.

if you say he is not born again there, he delights
in teh law of his mind, and you are confused.

if he is born again there, you say he is dead
to God there and you are still confused.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Even at the forefront of this post you took a quote I gave you from
Galatians and trimmed my comments, and injected your own without any
understanding of the passage and its context. You also by doing so
disagreed with those who are born again as to its meanings.

==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
as you would have it, this "tutor" is
-teaching- the people -to- 'sin' which is false.

That is your mistake, totally. The law is to instruct and magnify what
sin is. It never, ever, instructed anyone on how to sin, nor did it
put any desire to sin in your being.

you say that Paul believes that the law taught him sin.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
at best, Israel is a stiffnecked child
who rebells against the nanny.

Yes, because of the fleshly desires within them. The had to
consciously follow the law. It was not a natural desire of their
being, like it is with a person who is Born Again.

you think no one else but these had any success at all"

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

and you would suggest that a person walking in the
law in contrariness to their flesh sin nature was not
experiencing a conflict with God's Spirit who was in their midst?

of course they wre, that is why many became
ill and had various skin disorders. [isaiah 1]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law did not place "sin" in to anyone.
no, that "sin" was already present through Adam
and the tutoring guard gave instruction to the child
as to just what problems were in their way

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the
law.

this in no way implies that God's law placed 'sin' into anyone.
you would be walking contrary to Jame's dictum that no one is
free to claim that God is tempting him.

Post by Robert
The law was a light, magnifying the sin in their lives, it was weak,

the flesh is weak, and the carnal mind of man has dificulty
comprehending the law, which was veiled to them like Moses' face.

Post by Robert
in that whatever man dwells on in their minds they do more of it. It
is part and parcel with the rebellion that is in man. Tell a man not
to do something, and out of spite they will do it.

when God says "no" God means "no"

God is not saying no and meaning yes, this is a slander
to accuse God of reverse psychology, for, in that regard,
you make God a liar.

you make God the author of confusion.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
if they walked to far off, they'd get a
chastizing discipline, which would at least hold them
in line until such time as Christ should appear.

Yet when Christ appeared, they killed him. The curse of the law was
manifold, and went from mild to harsh, and the more one sinned the
harsher the curse. If they followed the law they were blessed.
Believers in Jesus Christ were freed from all that, first the Jew,
then the Gentile (who were never under the law, and Paul mentions that
as well.)

and yet, Paul gets all upset with the corinthian
man who is sleeping with his father's wife.

Paul hasn't abandoned the law. he delights in it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many
as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
==
people who sin without law die without law,
and people were dying from Adam til Moses
because the law of sin and death was at work in them.

2:13 Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect
and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because
he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining
justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But
since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So
this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than
something that is capable of human attainment.

you mean like John's parents?

==
Luke 1

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea,
a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of
Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and
her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous
before God, walking in all the commandments
and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==

you think they were the only ones?


the initial little ones who were to
enter the promised land were clean;

==
Deuteronomy 1:39

‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say
will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil,
they shall go in there; to them I will give it,
and they shall possess it.
==

Post by Robert
It was never God's intention that anyone be saved by the law.

it was never God's intention that sin
would enter in to a person -by- the law.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
law of sin and death is not law of Moses.

You can reiterate that until you are blue in the face, it will not
change a thing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Adam. sin and death
is reigning in the world before any law was given.

Yet you claimed that the commandment of the forbidden fruit was the
law of sin and death. Have you changed your mind?

it is the source of this principle for that is
where sin and death enter into human beings

from the knowledge of good and evil.

Post by Robert
There was no sin and death reigning in this world until Adam ate the
forbidden fruit. See your verse below.

no kidding. sin and death entered with Adam.

that's exactly what it says below.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in
the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
those who had not sinned according to the likeness of
the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him
who was to come.
==
you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.

It wasn't the knowledge of Good and evil that caused Adam to die, it
was the doing of what was forbidden for him to do.

no, there was a taint to that tree, and that's
where Adam picked up the law of sin and death.

Post by Robert
Otherwise you would have to say that God also is evil, since
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of

no, the correct translation is that the
man became another =away from= God.

because, i welcome you to get a hebrew bible or an interlinear
hebrew translation and scour for the preposition "mmnu"

it is found in genesis 3:22 and commonly translated as "of"

but the very same word, masoretic vowel pointers and all,
is also found in Deuteronomy 12:32 and 28:31 and
translated as "away =from=" and the same word form
with a minor different vowel pointer is found
in Exodus 8:8 and is also translated as "away=from="
mind you, vowel pointers are not in the original but
added by the Masoretes, but, they did not -change-
the word at all, so look here first;

"mmnu" emphasized by me;

===
Deuteronomy 12:32

“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it;
you shall not add to it nor take =AWAY FROM= it.
=
Deuteronomy 28:31

<...>your donkey shall be violently taken =AWAY FROM= before you, <...>
=
Exodus 8:8

Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said,
“Entreat the Lord that He may take =AWAY= the frogs
=FROM= me and from my people; and I will let the
people go, that they may sacrifice to the Lord.”
===

and so, the better translation of Genessis 3:22 becomes;


"Behold, "The Man" has become another [AWAY] _From_ 'Us' [Gen 3:22]


and basically this -fits- so much better
with the actual happenings in the story.


the same "from" as Moses says, you shall
-not- take away "from" the words of this law,
neither shall you add to it.

and "from" is just about always speaking of a thing
that is taken away from something else, even if it
is a thing eaten -from- a particular tree.

one plucks a piece of fruit away -from- a tree,
and when you do, that piece of fruit is no
longer part of that tree, and generally
begins to decay.

so, even if one suggests that "The Man"

was pushed or pulled -away- =from= YHWH

"The Man" is still, -away- _from_ YHWH

and -not- "One -of- Us"


"One -of- Us" is the very =lie= the serpent told to "the Man"

[yeah yeah yeah, i already said Adam and
Eve could be referred to as "the man"
even if they did become distinct]

YHWH never said;

"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,
you shall become like YHWH and i don't want that"


no no no, YHWH said;


"do not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it,

To Die you shall Die"


in other words, "you shall become DEAD"


and we see how the serpent's form, was actually -changed-
by YHWH so as to reflect the change that had already occurred
in the serpent's heart, becoming 'crafty' and not of the Truth.


oh, and one other little bit;

see, it says that YHWH caused to sprout a variety of
trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food,

and -then- it menations this "Tree [that] Lives"

being in the midst of the garden,

and -then- the mention is made of this 'other' tree that
was not good for foood but called the tree of the 'perception'
of good and bad which was able to make one DEAD if eaten.

now, here the /order/ matters

because, if tree with the perception of good and bad, came -second,
after the trees which were good for food and pleasing to teh eye,
then, one may infer quite readily that YHWH caused -that one- to
"sprout" as well as the others, but, in that the tree of Life,
or the tree that -already- lives, is placed second, between
the trees pleasing to the eye and good for food,

we need no suggest that this tree of perception of good and bad,

was among those caused to sprout by YHWH,

and this is because, this tree that lives,

the tree of Life, is already alive and lives forevermore
and need not be -caused- to sprout and is even associated
with the wisdom and inherent perpetual life of YHWH.

so, you have, YHWH causing trees which are good
for food and pleasing to the eye, to sprout,

and, then, speaking of a tree that simply -lives-
which is already in the midst of the garden

and then, speaking of this other
tree which is not good for food

of which the serpent used lies to cause them to eat of it.

Post by Robert
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of
Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

no, God not evil, but man did -not- become like God, but =away from= God.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
sin and death entered through Aam anbd spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die.

Post by Robert
You fail, no doubt by your choice, to ignore covenants and why they
are given by God, and to whom they were given, and mix them all
together like a stew.

look at how these statements parallel each other;
==
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure
through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have
actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise
them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom
a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For
if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
=
Galatians 4:8-10
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which
by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather
are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and
beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
==

Sorry, they do not parallel each other. Peter speaks to those who were
born again and turned away from God, renouncing Jesus, and living in a
life of sin, and that their end will be worse for them then if they
had never been born again.

nope, those false teachers were in error and they
are slaves of =corruption= not of any law of moses.

Post by Robert
Paul is speaking to the Galatians as I had mentioned before who were
delivered of the pagan rites and rotes of religion, and are now
turning to the Jewish rites and rotes, being deceived by the weak
Jewish believer who found it difficult to give up the old ways feeling
that they had to do something to earn their righteousness. when in
Jesus the gift of righteousness is totally free.

the slavery is to corruption and fleshly sin and not to any law of moses.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you say the "weak and beggarly elements" is the Law.
Peter and Paul are very clear that the freedom is from
the corruptions of the world and not that the Law is
such a worldly corruption.

That thought is a byproduct of your misunderstandings.

it's what Jesus says as well, see John 8:31 and actually read it for once.

Jesus clearly says that those are slaves to sin, not to law of moses.
==
John 8:31

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.


notice Jesus does -not- say; "Sinai made you a slave"
NO, Jesus said, "'SIN' is your slavedriver."
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
You also made comments regarding Adam and mankind with the problem of
sin, you tried to equate the knowledge of good and evil with some law
or laws.

no, i was quite clear on it;
i said this;
"""you may as well say that the Law of God is the
knowledge of good and evil which caused Adam to die.
sin and death entered through Adam and spread to
all men, and even those without law, transgress and die."""

Yet God is alive and not dead, rendering your statement moot.

Adam is dead and all of his offspring have inherited
the law of sin and death and sin and die.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the law of sin and death entered into the world through Adam.

Not the law of, but sin and death only.

it is a principle, the principle of
sin and death and it came through Adam.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
you call the law of sin and death the Law of Moses.

Paul Does. It is not something I made up. You read it, yet you deny
it.

not so, he calls that "another law
which is at work in my members"

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it would be a -mistake- to call the law of moses the knowledge
of good and evil, but that's what naturally falls from your
contention that the law of sin and death is the law of moses.

The law reveals evil. It is for sinners, not the righteous. It told
you part of what it takes to be Good, but no one outside of Christ
could do it.

still not seeing John's parents.

Post by Robert
All the scripture I gave you showing that the law
magnifies evil, of what use is it to you? You put the blame for that
understanding on me, not the scripture of God which I presented to
you.

the slavery is to sin and the corruption of the flesh.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
Paul very clearly says;
==
Romans 7
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present
with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—
through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
===

Lets put these verses into today's language yet pure to the Greek.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I
doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which
dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that
when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me
and I am subject to its insistent demands.

the law of sin and death is this principle. bingo, you got it.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:22 For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost
self [with my new nature]. [Psa_1:2]

so now you have Paul speaking about the law in
his new nature only just yesterday, you say this;

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible/alYzeIx90e8/PuNgKzV5AQAJ
/Paul speaks of a person, born into sin, but did not know sin since he
/had no knowledge and understanding of it, and then as he grew into a
/young man, he committed his first sin with the full realization of it,
/by the law, and then he died to God.

you are tangled up in confusion.

you have Paul delighting in his new nature
and dead to God ant the same time.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:23 But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at
war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to
the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive
appetites and wills of the flesh].

the law of sin and death that dwells in his body... bingo, you got it.

not a written code of ethics or anything of that sort.

Post by Robert
Rom 7:24 O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will
release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
Rom 7:25 O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed
One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart,
serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

two different principles, one the law of God
and one the appetites and wills of the flesh

your own translation sees it better than you are.

read it.

[Timothy Sutter]

some of what this comes down to is

exposure to a shadowy veiled description of righteousness,
does not make one righteous, and hearing and speaking
about this 'law'-alone- is not 'praiseworthy' but
that "righteousness" is itself, active, even if
one's belief in the words God says, and that God
-is- who God says God is, may be accounted
as a righteous deed in itself.


furthermore, -not- stealing is =passive= and
isn't really a "work" at all.

same for all of the various "nots" [thou shalt =not= 'do']

to =not= do a thing is -passive- -not- a "work"

now God is not the author of confusion and God cannot lie
[1 Corinthians 14:33] [Titus 1:2]

so we may not suggest that God says "no" and means "yes"

but still, =not doing= is passive, not acting, not a 'work' at all.

now, there -are- _active_ 'works' prescribed by the law in
-response- to 'working an evil' or -doing- a wrong.

various sin offerings -are- 'works of the law'

they are active 'works' "do this"

but blood of bulls and goats do not seem to
cleanse conscience of unrighteousness [Hebrews 10]

=
Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings,
and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure
in them” (which are offered according to the law),
=

man is justified, not by the blood of bulls and goats,[works of the law]
but by Faith in the efficacy of =Christ's= shed blood.

did you receive the Spirit by the blood of bulls and
goats[works of the law] or by faith in Christ's shed blood?

-these- "works of the law" /blood of bulls and goats/
are superceded by the perfecting blood of Christ

does God supply the Spirit and work miracles
amongst you because of the blood of bulls and
goats or by hearing that Christ has come in
the flesh and shed -his- blood?


==
Hebrews 10

3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins
every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood
of bulls and goats could take away sins.
==

these "works of the law" remind people of
their sin, and are not cleansing their conscience

but God still says "be righteous and
just and holy" and this hasn't changed.


==
Isaiah 51:4;6-7;16

“Listen to Me, My people; And give ear to Me, O My nation:
For law will proceed from Me, And I will make My justice
rest As a light of the peoples. But My salvation will
be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished.

7 “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people
in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach
of men, Nor be afraid of their insults.

16 I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
==

"righteousness" and "My law" are
parallel and synonymous here.
one is exemplified by the other.

seems to be sort of a "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you" type of thing.


one does not become "righteous" nor "just" by
shedding the blood of a bull goat nor lamb.

neither does one necessarily become righteous nor
just by -not- stealing, or -not- doing a wrong
to someone else.

because Jesus says, [essentially] "to think it is to do it"

if you look at another man's wife with desires, 'adultery'
if you hate your neighbor, 'murder'

so, one could go their whole life never actually
killing stealing or adulterating, but yet, ...
but yet, having a conscience filled
with guile and artifice.

in other words, you can actively walk contrary to God even
if it doesn't show on the outside with a clean cup cleansed
but filled with unrighteousness.

but yet, not stealing is not a work at all...

shedding blood of goats and lambs and bulls, that's a work.


now, if one's innate unrighteousness has been remitted
according to Christ's own purpose, =what= is the outcome?


a "cloaked evil person?" of course not


how about a consciousness cleaned of 'sin' consciousness
and thereby freed to walk in the righteousness of God?

some of what this comes down to is

exposure to a shadowy description of righteousness,
does not make one righteous, and hearing and speaking
about this 'law'-alone- is not 'praiseworthy' but
that "righteousness" is itself, active, even if
one's belief in the words God says, and that God
-is- who God says God, is may be accounted
as a righteous deed in itself.

[Timothy Sutter]

so...what then? [Hagar first, then Sarah]
[flesh first, then spirit] [1 Corinthians 15:425-49]

Hagar is not a "slave contract" but
rather, a contract =with= a _slave_ [flesh]

Sarah is an agreement =for= a free man, [spirit]
which is entered in to -by- a child. [transitional]


Hagar shows a way to freedom but the 'slave' has an inability
to see through the veil of the flesh and in to the Holiest of all Places
which is held in unapproachable Light, so he falters,

Sarah saunters in with her still small voice, piercing through
the veil of the flesh, and impregnates the man with this new Life
that is fully enabled to realize this freedom -with- God.



=====




and look, Israel even after having dealings with YHWH
and promises are made and wrestling matches occur,
wanders down in to Egypt, and sinks in to the mud pits
slaving for its daily bread, just as the body can
have the effect of slaving the mind to -its- bidding.

so, YHWH yanks Israel out of the mud of its slaving existence

but, still, Israel has the slave mentality firmly in place
and it isn't letting go so easily, and the people are still
made of flesh and blood, and still need their daily bread,
and most still need their daily shot of slave chemicals as well,
but that's a TOTALLY nuther story.

so anyway, i'll stop the slavery story here and go on to freedom...

So, there's Sarah, and she's a contract with a free man, but

she can only -be- a 'promise' as long as the man is still a slave.

but it looks as if, once again, it requires that strong arm

to pull the slave out of his slavery and in to his freedom

even if you =show= 'him' "the way" and this 'slave'

may very well be ingenious with a brilliantly inventive mind,

but, all he manages to invent is a more perfect prison environment.

oops, looks as if slavery and slave mentality is still

coming along for the ride here even though Sarah has been instituted,

so, we'll try to rectify this without getting lost in the search

for earthy wordy tools to describe an unseen phenomenon.

so anyway, [so anyway, i need a new transition statement,
"so anyway" is getting overused]

how 'bout "Furthermore"? yeah yeah, "Furthermore...for a while...

so anyway,

FURTHERMORE; furthermore, now, we have a promise of 'freedom'
and an experience of slavery, all going on at the same time.


but yet, the only people who -can- enter in to this 'freedom'

are former slaves, even if those slaves are called 'children'

cuz that's all there is anyway, as we had all fallen in to the
mud pits and even been born in the mud pits cuz that's the way
our minds work without the Spirit of Life gleaming in our eyes.

so, so someone shows a slave a bunch of words that
promises him freedom and he looks at them and says;

"wonderful, now what's for tea daughter?"

"what's for dinner?" the age olde question...

he doesn't really seem to believe that the words can
purchase his freedom or even lead him in to a free state.

so, at best, he stitches a brand new suit out of the pages,

and continues on as a slave with an even more intense
prisoner attitude which may seek to ease his failings
and shortcomings at the expense of others.

how to get this slave in to the free state
and consider him a child of Sarah.

"you must be born again" born -of- The Spirit

or else, the slave can =never= perceive his own freedom


FURTHERMORE;

[Michael Christ]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
something else funny;
Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,
but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

Timothy, I am not sure if I was misunderstanding you here, or if you
confused the two covenants, meaning the covenant of Moses for the
Jews, and the New covenant of Blood for the men made free, meaning in
Jesus.

what don't you understand?
"elements of the world" does not equal "Sinai contract"

OK Timothy, lets try this one more time.
You said that, "Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-"

'Round and 'round, 'round and 'round, in 'Robert world' and 'Timothy world'.






Michael Christ

Post by Robert
To start with, show me where there is a specific covenant for each.
What they are called. "elements of the world" is not a covenant.
As I said, it seems to me that you are confusing issues here. And this
is making it impossible to communicate. What I tried to say the first
time was accurate. The second time you appeared to be more interested
in the "elements of this world" but still came across as if it were
somehow tied to a covenant.
This time you focused, indirectly on the "elements" thing. It took me
a while to disregard everything else you brought to the plate and just
focus on the "elements" portion of it.
I had to do some serious prayer about that for clarity's sake. So,
while not jumping into the "elements" portion just yet, and I tend to
agree with your points on it, we need to get the mud out of the waters
of discussion so that we can be on the same page.
In order to do that we need clarity on your original points which I
addressed at the beginning of this post, the two covenants, and also
understand that Paul said he was comparing Hagar and Sarah as an
allegory, not a literal covenant, and when he spoke of Sinai and
Jerusalem he was speaking directly to the differences of the two
Covenants, the one of sin and death, the other of Life.
If you cannot see what I am saying, and how what Paul said fits in
with all this, then perhaps it is best to lay it aside to meditate on
for a short while.
Regards

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
Gal 4:3 -6 clearly speaks as to being under the rudimentary laws of
Moses and freed under Christ.

"elements of the world" is -not- God's Law
now, put your thinking caps on, you have to walk the obstacle course
and see how "law" is used, =again= to describe two or three entirely
different things.
you're gunna see three cases where "law" is used;
and i will code them with [1] and [2] and [3]
[1] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
[2] the law of sin and death
[3] the law [which has a "righteous requirement"]
[1] is the influencing divine nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit
[2] is the influence of the fleshy members of one's physical body
[3] is the written code which shadows and =points= towards Christ, #1.
now, Paul says here that [1] freed him -from- =2=
inasmuch as _3_ was ineffectual -against- =2=
even as _3_ pointed at and shadowed [1]
Paul never even implies that 1 freed him from 3
but he does suggest that 3 magnifies and maybe even exacerbates 2.
never does Paul say that 3 -caused or causes- 2
nor, God forbid, that 3 -is- 2.
staring at Romans 8; and then backtracking to 7 and 5.
==
Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For the law[1] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law[2] of sin and death.
For what the law[3] could not do in that it was weakened
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the
He condemned sin[2] in the flesh, that the righteous requirement
of the law[3] might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit[1].
For those who live according to the flesh[2] set their minds[2] on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit[1],
the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded[2] is death, but
to be spiritually minded[1] is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind[2] is enmity against God[1];
for it is not subject to the law of God[3], nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh[2] cannot please God.
===
===
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law[2], that evil is present[2] with me, the one who
wills to do good[3]. For I delight in the law of God[3] according
to the inward man. But I see another law[2] in the members of
my body, warring against the law of my mind[3=>1], and bringing
me into captivity to the law of sin[2] which is in the
members of my body. O wretched man that I am! Who
will deliver me from this body of death[2]?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord![1]
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God[3=>1],
but with the flesh the law of sin[2].
===
here we see, at -least-, TWO distinct 'laws' or influences.
a Natural law working in the members of Paul's body [2]
and God's Law.[3=>1]
the [Natural] law[2] is -another- law[2], a natural influence
of the flesh body[2], which wars -against- his mind's
comprehension of the Law of God[3=>1].
remembering; so-called "sin" -and- death entered in to the world
through =Adam= and were in the world doing their thing even though
people were not entirely aware what was happening to them nor why.
==
Romans 5:12
Therefore, as sin[2] entered into the world through
one man, and death through sin[2]; and so death
passed to all men, because all sinned.
==
the natural influence of 'sin' and death was
-already- at work in people before Moses and Sinai.
Sin and death is not a -product- of God's Law.
==
Romans 5:13-14
For until the law[3], sin[failure][2] was in the world; but
sin[2] is not charged when there is no law[3]. Nevertheless
death reigned[2] from Adam until Moses, even over those
whose sins weren't like Adam's purposeful error...
==
any bondage to sin and death, the =other= natural influence
on the flesh body, was already in effect before the Law
of God was ever shown.
the Law of God did not place "sin and death" in to mankind,
the Law of God merely shines a clear light on 'sin' and brings
'sin' all out into the open where 'sin' can be seen as precisely
what it is, =failure= of the flesh to rightly comprehend God on its own,
and the resulting darkened understanding which produces death.
now, the Sinai covenant is not -just- the Law of God.
no, -now- the failure of the flesh is =magnified=
by this agreement to abide in the Law and
the concomitant 'debt' accounting.
and here, i will place Jesus' statement again;
==
John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples
indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the
truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants,
and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can
You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave
does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides
forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free,
you shall be free indeed.
==
it's clear what Jesus says these people are 'slaves' of
and this slavery is not a slavery to The LAw, after all,
Jesus is born under 'it' and he walks through clean as a whistle.
etc. if it's still unclear, feel free to show me what
you do not understand about what i put up here.

[Timothy Sutter]

here's a 'legal matter' concerning
groups of individuals having this
problem to deal with;


"how many sets of laws?"


here's the two major options;


=
one set of laws for those within
a particular grouping and everyone
else is food or potential food,
=


let's just call this 'natural law'

and;


=
one set of laws for all
regardless of group placement.
=

and let's call this 'autonomic deo-mimicry'



so, you have Egypt;
the 'natural man'
of 'natural law'

and Egypt -enslaves- a 'strange'
people that is within -its- domain.

and immediately upon the extraction from Egypt,

Israel finds itself -given- this dictum;

"have one law for you -and-
the stranger dwelling in
your midst"

"do -not- oppress the stranger in
your midst because you were once
a stranger in Egypt."

so, for one thing, Egypt engages in a pattern
of behavior with which they would certainly object
if they were the slaves,

and, the law that Israel does -not-
come away with is 'natural law'

or, "one set of regulations for individuals
within a given group and all others are
food or potential food"

the lion has a behavior within its pride
and everything else is measured as
food or potential food.

the man of God rises above nature
to free himself from the dictates
-of- nature.

in this way the man can show mercy and -do- Justice.

the tree is -known- by its fruit, -not- by it's name.

show the fruit,
get the name,

take the name,
fail to show the fruit,
lose the name.

look for the fruit,
not the name.




so, why should you care whether
you do justice or not?

what's the incentive if all
that matters is that you get
what you want and you are
getting what you want already?

one clear benefit might be peace.

peace of mind if not the
end to all hostilities.

if you hold to personal bias,
you are fundamentally in an
argument with your self.

you even have, at least,
two sets of behavioral codes.

one for you and one for everyone else,

so, you're already in an argument
with yourself and you don't even
need an opponent.

your own personal codes clash with each other.

don't lose any sleep over it...




you don't have to go to much trouble
to demonstrate that the Egyptians
were 'carnal man.'

they patterened their behaviors after
animals and thereby 'worshipped'
the animal form;

so-called theriomorphism,

and they say that the 'carnal mind of man'
doesn't understand the Law of God nor can it.

so, YHWH 'softens' the carnal mind of
man as far as it can be softened in affliction,

but even still, the natural man, recognizes
only the afflictions and comes to the
conclusion that he is in the wrong, and

still falls short of the 'glory of God'
and so, is drowned in the waters of death.
and now, we're at the point where God

raises the the man up in newness of life
as 'new creature' where the old man is essentially dead,
and yet, the Life of God sustains -its- animation
for the express purpose of growing the new man
up to the point of total conversion in bodily
resurrection in the likeness of Christ
with a regulation 'Spirit Body.'

which is why we do not pray
for the end of all things,

but expressly thank God for the -time-
to cleanse and purify ourselves so as to
be transformed more totally from clay
to silver or gold to a noble purpose,

thereby showing that we can be trustworthy
in a small thing so as to become trustworthy
in untold wonders known only to God,

but the distinction between one -type-
of 'carnal man' and another is torn down
as all are carnal and in need of the
only hope which -is- the resurrection.


Egypt is God's people too.

=
Isaiah 19:25
whom YHWH Defender shall bless, saying,
“Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria
the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”
=

it's not just a good people bad people
dynamic with sock puppets and pawns

it's shortfallen people and a merciful God.



so, the deceitfulness of man's own natural
shortfall from God has an effect of hardening
his heart away from acknowledgement of God.
God -can- allow man to wander 'that way'
and harden -himself- away from God entirely
into worshipping himself and mud and
sticks and animals.

God can also, show mercy to man,
and 'soften' him up and bring him back
into an acknowledgement of God with
all the truly desired effects, which
lead to a more abundant life, this will have.

so, inasmuch as God -could- have simply
wiped Pharoah off the planet and been
done with it all in a single stroke,

the fact that God allows Pharoah to live,
and in essence, 'softens' the heart of
Pharoah through explicit shows of force
and power so as to release the Israelites,

we see that God is, in reality,
-showing- mercy on Pharoah by -not-
simply letting Pharoah completely
harden -himself- through the
deceitfulness of his -own- nature.

it -seems- right to Pharoah
to keep the Israelites in his hands,
and so he must be forcefully
-shown- the wrong of it.

which he most assuredly is shown.

and who -would- resist this will of God
so as to -remain- _on_ the hardening road
which leads to death when we all desire Life?

no one -should-, _but_, when the hardness
of one's own natural shortfall has taken
a toll the initial response is -to- despise
and resist the parental -correction- of
the Almighty God.

so, no one -should- resist
this will of the Almighty God,

but still, people -do- resist this
'softening' -mercy- of God because
they cannot immediately -see- it
-as- for their benefit.

and so, -why- does God find fault here?

because you are -being- shown mercy and
you reject it in favor of a small bowl
of soup to feed an immediate perception
of physical need.

and then the sea parts
and the old man is drowned.


and it's sort of funny in that

later on the Israelites have to face other
Pharonic type figures screaming -at- them to get
them to soften -their- hearts and pay due
respects to The Almighty.



Pharoah's heart was softened a bit,
but then Israel rebelled and showed
how hard -it's- heart was.

it's not God hardening people's heart in
rebellion so as to slap them around
for sport.

=
Psalm 107:11
Because they rebelled against the words of God,
And despised the counsel of the Most High,

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of YHWH is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 3:11
My son, do not despise the chastening
of YHWH, Nor detest His correction;
=



trouble is, subsequently, you still cannot identify,
by group membership alone, a clear rejection of 'lex talonis'
inasmuch as a group can still operate according to a
'natural law' from within a 'chosen' group where that
'chosen' identification is -claimed- to be -from- God.

meaning; clearly, a group does not -need-
a 'chosen' by God' status to engage in
'lex talonis' but, the identification as
'chosen by God' does not, in itself,
prevent a given group from engaging
in the operation of 'natural law'

meaning; for one thing,

you should not find yourself saying;

"well, they don't believe in God and they
operate according to 'natural law' and so,
they are inclined to group bias and -we-
are -not- so inclined, _simply_ because
we are 'chosen and elect' -by- God."

because -you- could then allow yourself
to fall into the same trap that you
would claim they are already in.

that 'trap' being setting
up two sets of laws,

one for you and your group
and one for everyone else,

where such a set up grants your group the right
to cast aside any 'moral obligation' to those
-outside- of your group placement.

yes, you can -claim- that the 'natural law' group
is more greatly pre-disposed to landing -in- the
'natural law' pitfall than those who claim some
affiliation with God,

but it will be difficult to -prove-, outright,
that those who claim no affiliation with God,
are operating under a 'natural law' -solely-
because they claim no affiliation with Deity,
as you would need more information about how
they -are- _behaving_ to sort this out.


don't use affiliation with God as a tool
to engage in group bias, but don't be unaware
that group bias is a pre-disposition -of-
'natural law'


even, and especially,
in your -own- dealings.

the 'non-beliver' may only have
a speck of personal bias, which
you may have failed to correctly
assist in removing, being blocked
by the -beam- of personal bias, in
light of -claims- of deo-mimcry.

so, don't do that.

make sure you have no such
-beam- in yur eyes, -first-,

and then, certainly, feel free to point out
-any- tendency towards personal bias, which
would corrupt Justice.


-now-, not last century


or not

who cares

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's a 'legal matter' concerning
groups of individuals having this
problem to deal with;
"how many sets of laws?"
here's the two major options;
=
one set of laws for those within
a particular grouping and everyone
else is food or potential food,
=
let's just call this 'natural law'
and;
=
one set of laws for all
regardless of group placement.
=
and let's call this 'autonomic deo-mimicry'
so, you have Egypt;
the 'natural man'
of 'natural law'
and Egypt -enslaves- a 'strange'
people that is within -its- domain.
and immediately upon the extraction from Egypt,
Israel finds itself -given- this dictum;
"have one law for you -and-
the stranger dwelling in
your midst"
"do -not- oppress the stranger in
your midst because you were once
a stranger in Egypt."
so, for one thing, Egypt engages in a pattern
of behavior with which they would certainly object
if they were the slaves,
and, the law that Israel does -not-
come away with is 'natural law'
or, "one set of regulations for individuals
within a given group and all others are
food or potential food"
the lion has a behavior within its pride
and everything else is measured as
food or potential food.
the man of God rises above nature
to free himself from the dictates
-of- nature.
in this way the man can show mercy and -do- Justice.
the tree is -known- by its fruit, -not- by it's name.
show the fruit,
get the name,
take the name,
fail to show the fruit,
lose the name.
look for the fruit,
not the name.
so, why should you care whether
you do justice or not?
what's the incentive if all
that matters is that you get
what you want and you are
getting what you want already?
one clear benefit might be peace.
peace of mind if not the
end to all hostilities.
if you hold to personal bias,
you are fundamentally in an
argument with your self.
you even have, at least,
two sets of behavioral codes.
one for you and one for everyone else,
so, you're already in an argument
with yourself and you don't even
need an opponent.
your own personal codes clash with each other.
don't lose any sleep over it...

Joh 14:25  These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with
you. 
Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 
Joh 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as
the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled,
neither let it be afraid. 

Php 4:6  Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and
supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto
God. 
Php 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall
keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 

He gave me and filled me with that peace.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's a 'legal matter' concerning
groups of individuals having this
problem to deal with;
"how many sets of laws?"
here's the two major options;
=
one set of laws for those within
a particular grouping and everyone
else is food or potential food,
=
let's just call this 'natural law'
and;
=
one set of laws for all
regardless of group placement.
=
and let's call this 'autonomic deo-mimicry'
so, you have Egypt;
the 'natural man'
of 'natural law'
and Egypt -enslaves- a 'strange'
people that is within -its- domain.
and immediately upon the extraction from Egypt,
Israel finds itself -given- this dictum;
"have one law for you -and-
the stranger dwelling in
your midst"
"do -not- oppress the stranger in
your midst because you were once
a stranger in Egypt."
so, for one thing, Egypt engages in a pattern
of behavior with which they would certainly object
if they were the slaves,
and, the law that Israel does -not-
come away with is 'natural law'
or, "one set of regulations for individuals
within a given group and all others are
food or potential food"
the lion has a behavior within its pride
and everything else is measured as
food or potential food.
the man of God rises above nature
to free himself from the dictates
-of- nature.
in this way the man can show mercy and -do- Justice.
the tree is -known- by its fruit, -not- by it's name.
show the fruit,
get the name,
take the name,
fail to show the fruit,
lose the name.
look for the fruit,
not the name.
so, why should you care whether
you do justice or not?
what's the incentive if all
that matters is that you get
what you want and you are
getting what you want already?
one clear benefit might be peace.
peace of mind if not the
end to all hostilities.
if you hold to personal bias,
you are fundamentally in an
argument with your self.
you even have, at least,
two sets of behavioral codes.
one for you and one for everyone else,
so, you're already in an argument
with yourself and you don't even
need an opponent.
your own personal codes clash with each other.
don't lose any sleep over it...

Joh 14:25  These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with
you.
Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as
the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled,
neither let it be afraid.
Php 4:6  Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and
supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto
God.
Php 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall
keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
He gave me and filled me with that peace.

the law of sin and death is a trait in man after Adam ate.

Paul says;

"another law is at work in my BODY"

right -after- he says that he delights in God's law in his mind.

it's soooo simple.

slave to corruptions and sin...

here's an interesting bit; i notice, it's the "word of YHWH"
i'll place a few comments after the passage. further citations
after some comments should lend clarity to the understanding
of BaaL as well.


==
Jeremiah 34:8-11
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all
the people who were at Jerusalem to proclaim liberty
to them: that every man should set free his male
and female slave--a Hebrew man or woman--that no one
should keep a Jewish brother in bondage. Now when
all the princes and all the people, who had entered
into the covenant, heard that everyone should set free
his male and female slaves, that no one should keep
them in bondage anymore, they obeyed and let them go.
But afterward they changed their minds and made
the male and female slaves return, whom they had
set free, and brought them into subjection as
male and female slaves.


12-14
Therefore the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
saying, "Thus says YHWH, the God of Israel: "I made a
covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought
them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage,
saying, "At the end of seven years let every man set free
his Hebrew brother, who has been sold to him; and when
he has served you six years, you shall let him go free
from you." But your fathers did not obey Me nor incline
their ear.


15-16
Then you recently turned and did what was right in My sight
--every man proclaiming liberty to his neighbor; and you made
a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name.
16Then you turned around and profaned My name, and every one
of you brought back his male and female slaves, whom he had
set at liberty, at their pleasure, and brought them back into
subjection, to be your male and female slaves.'


17
"Therefore thus says YHWH: "You have not obeyed Me in
proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and every
one to his neighbor. Behold, I proclaim liberty to you,'
says YHWH
===


"you have not obeyed me in proclaiming Liberty"

-that's- what YHWH says.

"behold, I proclaim Liberty to you"

-that's what YHWH says.



this entire incident says that the people
failed to incline their ears to the ways
of YHWH and did -not- proclaim Liberty and
held their own people as slaves against
the dictates of The Law.

the word of YHWH which came to Jeremiah
-cites- The Law [verse 12-14] and then faults
the people for not living up to that, so,
it's the same YHWH and not some different
YHWH than the YHWH who spoke to Moses.

just so that's clear.

but now, look at this;


==
Jeremiah 2:8
The priests did not say, "Where is YHWH?' And those
who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers also
transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied
by Baal, And walked after things that do not profit.

Jeremiah 2:23
"How can you say, "I am not polluted, I have not
gone after the Baals'? See your way in the valley;
Know what you have done: You are a swift dromedary
breaking loose in her ways,

Jeremiah 9:14
but they have walked according to the dictates
of their own hearts and after the Baals, which
their fathers taught them,"

[speaking of the neighboring nations]
Jeremiah 12:16
And it shall be, if they will learn carefully
the ways of My people, to swear by My name,
"As YHWH lives,' as they taught My people
to swear by Baal, then they shall be
established in the midst of My people.

Jeremiah 23:13
"And I have seen folly in the prophets
of Samaria: They prophesied by Baal And
caused My people Israel to err.

Jeremiah 23:27
who try to make My people forget My name
by their dreams which everyone tells his
neighbor, as their fathers forgot
My name for Baal.
===


look, YHWH is chastizing the people thru Jeremiah
for abandoning YHWH for ...BAAL, -and- he faults
them for -not- proclaiming personal Liberty and
freedom and enslaving their own brothers
-against- the issuance of statements thru Moses.


this inference is not even a hop much less a grand leap.

YHWH says;

'proclaim liberty'

the people -err- and enslave their own brothers,

and YHWH says,

"you have wandered off in error after BAAL"

therefore, not -only- do we -see- YHWH
proclaiming Liberty if preference to slavery,

but we see YHWH saying that BAAL was
the error into which the people had fallen.

-therefore-

we can now trace back all reference to BAAL
as a definite indication as to the source
of the Slavery which is opposed to YHWH's
proclamation of Liberty.

-and- therefore,

see YHWH's severe antagonism against
BAAL as a condemnation of Slavery,
in no uncertain terms.

YHWH didn't change.

YHWH proclaims Liberty.

what we may also infer is that YHWH
gives -time- to remedy a situation,
but if that situation is not remedied,

YHWH is right there to set you back a step.


how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?

YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin

they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.

etc

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
here's a 'legal matter' concerning
groups of individuals having this
problem to deal with;
"how many sets of laws?"
here's the two major options;
=
one set of laws for those within
a particular grouping and everyone
else is food or potential food,
=
let's just call this 'natural law'
and;
=
one set of laws for all
regardless of group placement.
=
and let's call this 'autonomic deo-mimicry'
so, you have Egypt;
the 'natural man'
of 'natural law'
and Egypt -enslaves- a 'strange'
people that is within -its- domain.
and immediately upon the extraction from Egypt,
Israel finds itself -given- this dictum;
"have one law for you -and-
the stranger dwelling in
your midst"
"do -not- oppress the stranger in
your midst because you were once
a stranger in Egypt."
so, for one thing, Egypt engages in a pattern
of behavior with which they would certainly object
if they were the slaves,
and, the law that Israel does -not-
come away with is 'natural law'
or, "one set of regulations for individuals
within a given group and all others are
food or potential food"
the lion has a behavior within its pride
and everything else is measured as
food or potential food.
the man of God rises above nature
to free himself from the dictates
-of- nature.
in this way the man can show mercy and -do- Justice.
the tree is -known- by its fruit, -not- by it's name.
show the fruit,
get the name,
take the name,
fail to show the fruit,
lose the name.
look for the fruit,
not the name.
so, why should you care whether
you do justice or not?
what's the incentive if all
that matters is that you get
what you want and you are
getting what you want already?
one clear benefit might be peace.
peace of mind if not the
end to all hostilities.
if you hold to personal bias,
you are fundamentally in an
argument with your self.
you even have, at least,
two sets of behavioral codes.
one for you and one for everyone else,
so, you're already in an argument
with yourself and you don't even
need an opponent.
your own personal codes clash with each other.
don't lose any sleep over it...

Joh 14:25  These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with
you.
Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as
the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled,
neither let it be afraid.
Php 4:6  Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and
supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto
God.
Php 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall
keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
He gave me and filled me with that peace.

the law of sin and death is a trait in man after Adam ate.
Paul says;
"another law is at work in my BODY"
right -after- he says that he delights in God's law in his mind.
it's soooo simple.
slave to corruptions and sin...
here's an interesting bit; i notice, it's the "word of YHWH"
i'll place a few comments after the passage. further citations
after some comments should lend clarity to the understanding
of BaaL as well.
==
Jeremiah 34:8-11
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all
the people who were at Jerusalem to proclaim liberty
to them: that every man should set free his male
and female slave--a Hebrew man or woman--that no one
should keep a Jewish brother in bondage. Now when
all the princes and all the people, who had entered
into the covenant, heard that everyone should set free
his male and female slaves, that no one should keep
them in bondage anymore, they obeyed and let them go.
But afterward they changed their minds and made
the male and female slaves return, whom they had
set free, and brought them into subjection as
male and female slaves.

To the Jew, no one else.

Post by Timothy Sutter
12-14
Therefore the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
saying, "Thus says YHWH, the God of Israel: "I made a
covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought
them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage,
saying, "At the end of seven years let every man set free
his Hebrew brother, who has been sold to him; and when
he has served you six years, you shall let him go free
from you." But your fathers did not obey Me nor incline
their ear.

To the Jew, those from the time of the desert on.

Post by Timothy Sutter
15-16
Then you recently turned and did what was right in My sight
--every man proclaiming liberty to his neighbor; and you made
a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name.
16Then you turned around and profaned My name, and every one
of you brought back his male and female slaves, whom he had
set at liberty, at their pleasure, and brought them back into
subjection, to be your male and female slaves.'

Again, to the Jew.

Post by Timothy Sutter
17
"Therefore thus says YHWH: "You have not obeyed Me in
proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and every
one to his neighbor. Behold, I proclaim liberty to you,'
says YHWH
===
"you have not obeyed me in proclaiming Liberty"
-that's- what YHWH says.
"behold, I proclaim Liberty to you"
-that's what YHWH says.

To the Jew, under the covenant of the Mosaic Law.

Post by Timothy Sutter
this entire incident says that the people
failed to incline their ears to the ways
of YHWH and did -not- proclaim Liberty and
held their own people as slaves against
the dictates of The Law.
the word of YHWH which came to Jeremiah
-cites- The Law [verse 12-14] and then faults
the people for not living up to that, so,
it's the same YHWH and not some different
YHWH than the YHWH who spoke to Moses.
just so that's clear.

Clearly this is to all those under the Old Covenant alone.

Post by Timothy Sutter
but now, look at this;
==
Jeremiah 2:8
The priests did not say, "Where is YHWH?' And those
who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers also
transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied
by Baal, And walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah 2:23
"How can you say, "I am not polluted, I have not
gone after the Baals'? See your way in the valley;
Know what you have done: You are a swift dromedary
breaking loose in her ways,
Jeremiah 9:14
but they have walked according to the dictates
of their own hearts and after the Baals, which
their fathers taught them,"
[speaking of the neighboring nations]
Jeremiah 12:16
And it shall be, if they will learn carefully
the ways of My people, to swear by My name,
"As YHWH lives,' as they taught My people
to swear by Baal, then they shall be
established in the midst of My people.
Jeremiah 23:13
"And I have seen folly in the prophets
of Samaria: They prophesied by Baal And
caused My people Israel to err.
Jeremiah 23:27
who try to make My people forget My name
by their dreams which everyone tells his
neighbor, as their fathers forgot
My name for Baal.
===
look, YHWH is chastizing the people thru Jeremiah
for abandoning YHWH for ...BAAL, -and- he faults
them for -not- proclaiming personal Liberty and
freedom and enslaving their own brothers
-against- the issuance of statements thru Moses.

But this personal liberty has nothing to do with the liberty in Christ
Jesus.

Post by Timothy Sutter
this inference is not even a hop much less a grand leap.
YHWH says;
'proclaim liberty'
the people -err- and enslave their own brothers,
and YHWH says,
"you have wandered off in error after BAAL"
therefore, not -only- do we -see- YHWH
proclaiming Liberty if preference to slavery,
but we see YHWH saying that BAAL was
the error into which the people had fallen.
-therefore-
we can now trace back all reference to BAAL
as a definite indication as to the source
of the Slavery which is opposed to YHWH's
proclamation of Liberty.
-and- therefore,
see YHWH's severe antagonism against
BAAL as a condemnation of Slavery,
in no uncertain terms.
YHWH didn't change.
YHWH proclaims Liberty.
what we may also infer is that YHWH
gives -time- to remedy a situation,
but if that situation is not remedied,
YHWH is right there to set you back a step.
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.
The Jew were the only ones under bondage to the Law, to keep it in
every respect. To offer the various sacrifices and honor the Sabbath,
keep the High Holy days, etc.

God's spirit did not dwell in the hearts of all Jews. Those in whom he
did dwell the Holy Spirit could be taken away at any time, or when
their purpose for having the Spirit was completed. All who dwelt under
the law were under its curse. (Curses)

The New Covenant is a better covenant. Foretold in the scriptures.

With a law, not written in Stone.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

Post by Robert
The Jew were the only ones under bondage to the Law,

you almost got this before when you saw that
they agreed to abide in it from the onset.

there was no force involved, and in fact, it was
a strong arm of YHWH that wrenched the Israelites
out of Egyptian bondage.

it is a "binding agreement" that both God
and the Israelites agreed to enter in to.

on the other hand, the bondage to =sin= is not by agreement

and is a naturally occuring principle in man after
Adam which man -needs- to be freed from.

Post by Robert
to keep it in every respect. To offer the various sacrifices

yes, this blood etc, is a temporary allowance, as God
can choose, by agreement, to let those sacrifices
suffice for ritual purity.

you will see that many of these are freewill offerings.

no, you will not find that the law =implants= 'sin' in to a man,

and teh bondage is to sin, for Jesus et all all describe
bondage as an effect of a thing which a person is overcome by.

if they were overcome by law, they would have kept it,
and some did manage to keep it.

how many times would you see that Jesus, Peter et all
all speak of a bondage to teh worldly corruptions of 'sin?'

Post by Robert
and honor the Sabbath. keep the High Holy days, etc

by agreement.

Post by Robert
God's spirit did not dwell in the hearts of all Jews. Those in whom he
did dwell the Holy Spirit could be taken away at any time,

don't quench the Holy Spirit...

but, if you'd just apply that to David, you would
see how he, under the influence of God's own Spirit

absolutely delighted in the law, and praised it no end.

David is every bit under teh original agreement

and he is not complaining about the law one little bit.

Post by Robert
or when their purpose for having the Spirit was completed.
All who dwelt under the law were under its curse. (Curses)
The New Covenant is a better covenant. Foretold in the scriptures.

why? because God found fault with -them- the people,
and not with God's own law or manner of being

and Paul clearly says that he delighted in God's law with
his mind, but, that, "another law" was at work in his BODY[members]


and this thing you call a "sin nature" =is=

"the law of sin and death"

and man is freed from the law of sin and death by dying

and having Jesus' Spirit enter in to him which quickens
the dead body which is no longer a slave to the corruptions
of the =sin nature=


want to see scritture quotes again?

Post by Robert
With a law, not written in Stone.

and you suppose that God radically changed God's mind in this thing?

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
The Jew were the only ones under bondage to the Law,

you almost got this before when you saw that
they agreed to abide in it from the onset.

Again, I have said it here many, many times. Even before speaking with
you.

Post by Timothy Sutter
there was no force involved, and in fact, it was
a strong arm of YHWH that wrenched the Israelites
out of Egyptian bondage.
it is a "binding agreement" that both God
and the Israelites agreed to enter in to.

The Binding agreement was the Mosaic Law. Nothing to do with Egypt.

Post by Timothy Sutter
on the other hand, the bondage to =sin= is not by agreement

Without the law there is no sin. So why did the Jew have a problem
with sin and not the Gentile?

Post by Timothy Sutter
and is a naturally occuring principle in man after
Adam which man -needs- to be freed from.

Again where was the sin, was Abel killed for murdering his brother?
Why Not?

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
to keep it in every respect. To offer the various sacrifices

yes, this blood etc, is a temporary allowance, as God
can choose, by agreement, to let those sacrifices
suffice for ritual purity.
you will see that many of these are freewill offerings.

There is a huge difference between a sin offering and a freewill
offering, or an offering simply of rejoicing and thanksgiving.

Post by Timothy Sutter
no, you will not find that the law =implants= 'sin' in to a man,

Who said it did? Why would you even think such a thing>

Post by Timothy Sutter
and teh bondage is to sin, for Jesus et all all describe
bondage as an effect of a thing which a person is overcome by.
if they were overcome by law, they would have kept it,
and some did manage to keep it.

No one managed to keep all the law, none. Do not fool yourself into
thinking so.

Post by Timothy Sutter
how many times would you see that Jesus, Peter et all
all speak of a bondage to teh worldly corruptions of 'sin?'

In what manner? Plus, how come the Law magnified sin. Jesus even
magnified it more than the law by stating that even if one lusted
after a woman that have as much as committed adultery. How many more
men were just added to the sinners list because of that?

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
and honor the Sabbath. keep the High Holy days, etc

by agreement.

By Commandment, and they agreed to it. Now that they agreed to it, if
broken then one more sin and possible death penalty.

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
God's spirit did not dwell in the hearts of all Jews. Those in whom he
did dwell the Holy Spirit could be taken away at any time,

don't quench the Holy Spirit...

Spoken to the believer, not the Jew, grabbing at straws?

Post by Timothy Sutter
but, if you'd just apply that to David, you would
see how he, under the influence of God's own Spirit
absolutely delighted in the law, and praised it no end.
David is every bit under teh original agreement
and he is not complaining about the law one little bit.

Which is why God delighted in him even though he committed grievous
sins. Look at Saul who was King before David, from whom the Spirit of
God was withdrawn, even though he worked mightily with the Holy Spirit
in his early days,

Again you appear to be unable to understand the differences between
the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with man, or are unwilling to
do so in spite of God's word stating that it is a new and better
covenant. One without condemnation. The Old Covenant condemned. and
Condemned to death. For instance, commit adultery and your sin was
discovered? It was the death penalty by stoning. Where is their life
in that? Look at the other things for which there was an immediate
death penalty for breaking the Mosaic Law, like breaking the Sabbath.
Want to follow the law still?

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
or when their purpose for having the Spirit was completed.
All who dwelt under the law were under its curse. (Curses)
The New Covenant is a better covenant. Foretold in the scriptures.

why? because God found fault with -them- the people,
and not with God's own law or manner of being

It was because the law was found to be weak.
Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how
much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was
established upon better promises. 
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no
place have been sought for the second. 
Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come,
saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of
Israel and with the house of Judah: 
Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land
of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded
them not, saith the Lord. 

Post by Timothy Sutter
and Paul clearly says that he delighted in God's law with
his mind, but, that, "another law" was at work in his BODY[members]

And you keep right on making up a law where there is no law.

Post by Timothy Sutter
and this thing you call a "sin nature" =is=
"the law of sin and death"
and man is freed from the law of sin and death by dying

No, for after death, the sinner will realize a second death and not
receive everlasting life.

Post by Timothy Sutter
and having Jesus' Spirit enter in to him which quickens
the dead body which is no longer a slave to the corruptions
of the =sin nature=

Only by being born again, and then by walking in the spirit. You have
already quoted a few times from James regarding a person once
delivered who by their choice in living in full time sin died again
and their latter end will be worse than if they had never known God.

Post by Timothy Sutter
want to see scritture quotes again?

Post by Robert
With a law, not written in Stone.

and you suppose that God radically changed God's mind in this thing?

God's wrath was satisfied by the death and shed blood of Christ and
there is now no condemnation until the end of this age. Call it what
you want, Jesus satisfied the law for this age.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

it is "the law of sin and death," which is a bondage
to this 'sin nature' and corrupting worldly influences
of decay, to which man has need of gaining his freedom
so that he can walk correctly with his God.

the blood of bulls goats and lambs was ineffective
in completing this as it was an outward atonement
for the flesh to keep it clean in the presence
of the ark of the covenant, and the people did not
seem to free their minds on their own while simply
in the presence of the ark.

God said; "be holy for i am holy"

not; "you can try to be holy all you like
but i know you can't do it"

yet the -offer- is bone fide.

faith in the blood of Jesus Christ has seemed
to be effective in bringing this inward cleansing
of the sin conciousness to reality, because, for
some reason, God pours out the Spirit on
whomsoever will ask and not on a
chosen and select few.

each progression in careful order

yet still, it is not the Law of God to which anyone
is enslaved, but the sin nature and sin consciousness
and the law of sin and death which is at work -in- the flesh.

one does not need to say that faith in the blood of Christ
frees them from the blood of bulls and goats because they
were never enslaved by these.

people did not need their consciousness cleansed of the law of God

people needed their consciousnesses cleansed of this 'sin nature'

and the Spirit of Christ is able to cleanse
the consciousness of this 'sin nature'

the Law of God is =not= this 'sin nature'
from which anyone needs be cleansed.

to say that the law of God -is- this sin nature
from which people must be cleansed, is simply
a slander against God.

yes, Israel was bound by agreement to walk in the law

but, had they carried all out correctly,

=freedom= would have been theirs.

it is their demonstrated slavery to this 'sin nature'
and 'the law of sin and death' which -spoiled-
their opportunity to enjoy _this_ =freedom=

and the same =freedom= applies in Christ

not freedom to indulge the flesh with
all of its warrings and conflict,

but freedom to enjoy peace with other people and with God.

and "no one will make them afraid" [PP xx:yyy-zz]

conflict resolved...

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?
on the other hand, the bondage to =sin= is not by agreement

Without the law there is no sin. So why did the Jew have a problem
with sin and not the Gentile?

Gentiles need to be forgiven of sin.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?
on the other hand, the bondage to =sin= is not by agreement

Without the law there is no sin. So why did the Jew have a problem
with sin and not the Gentile?

Gentiles need to be forgiven of sin.

That wasn't the question. However, this does bring up a related
question, do you have any idea what sin is? Free up front clue so that
you know it isn't some trick question. Many words are included in the
one English word "Sin".

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

it is "the law of sin and death," which is a bondage
to this 'sin nature' and corrupting worldly influences
of decay, to which man has need of gaining his freedom
so that he can walk correctly with his God.

There is no "law of sin and death" as you put it. properly spoken of
it is a "principle", (nomos) not a law as in the Mosaic Law.

Post by Timothy Sutter
the blood of bulls goats and lambs was ineffective
in completing this as it was an outward atonement
for the flesh to keep it clean in the presence
of the ark of the covenant, and the people did not
seem to free their minds on their own while simply
in the presence of the ark.

No man can "free their mind on their own". The blood atoned for the
sins of the people who sacrificed. The High Priest could not enter the
Holy of Holies unless he offered a sin sacrifice for himself and one
for the people. It was accounted to him as righteousness else he would
have been struck dead on the spot.

Post by Timothy Sutter
God said; "be holy for i am holy"
not; "you can try to be holy all you like
but i know you can't do it"
yet the -offer- is bone fide.
faith in the blood of Jesus Christ has seemed
to be effective in bringing this inward cleansing
of the sin conciousness to reality, because, for
some reason, God pours out the Spirit on
whomsoever will ask and not on a
chosen and select few.

Jesus died to make this possible for all men. His death retroactively
covered all who walked by faith believing God according to his word,
and his death also cleanses the sins of all men who believe on him
forward to the end of time.

The Holy Spirit is given to all men who have been born again. "If you
have not the spirit of God you are none of his" Romans 8:9

Post by Timothy Sutter
each progression in careful order
yet still, it is not the Law of God to which anyone
is enslaved, but the sin nature and sin consciousness
and the law of sin and death which is at work -in- the flesh.
one does not need to say that faith in the blood of Christ
frees them from the blood of bulls and goats because they
were never enslaved by these.

No one is enslaved to any sin when they are in Christ Jesus
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 
Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God. 

Post by Timothy Sutter
people did not need their consciousness cleansed of the law of God
people needed their consciousnesses cleansed of this 'sin nature'
and the Spirit of Christ is able to cleanse
the consciousness of this 'sin nature'

Far, far, more than that my friend, he Gives us a New spirit,
completely regenerated, made the righteousness of God, without sin,
sanctified, redeemed, made as clean as the Holy of Holies in Heaven.
Therein resides the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ within our
spirits and then the spirit is "sealed" and a surety given, Insurance
policy as it were that he would keep us, and never ever leave us like
he did in the OT. That part of us is without sin. It is also why, when
your mind chooses to side with the flesh that it grieves the Holy
Spirit that is within us.

Post by Timothy Sutter
the Law of God is =not= this 'sin nature'
from which anyone needs be cleansed.
to say that the law of God -is- this sin nature
from which people must be cleansed, is simply
a slander against God.

Again, you are muddying the waters of understanding.

Post by Timothy Sutter
yes, Israel was bound by agreement to walk in the law
but, had they carried all out correctly,
=freedom= would have been theirs.

No, for the shed blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, had not been made
available to them. They were bound by the law until Christ fulfilled
the law.

Now blessings would have been theirs, great blessings to each and
every individual who walked properly in the law. You can read all
about it "Blessings and Curses".

Post by Timothy Sutter
it is their demonstrated slavery to this 'sin nature'
and 'the law of sin and death' which -spoiled-
their opportunity to enjoy _this_ =freedom=
and the same =freedom= applies in Christ

Hardly, a much better freedom is available through Christ, why?
Because the Born Again believer is empowered with the power that
raised Christ from the dead. That was never available to the
individual before his death and resurrection. His one sacrifice for
all time as opposed to the annual sacrifice for sin under the law.
Under the law the works of men was vital for righteousness, under
Christ our works are as filthy rags, as He has done it all for us who
are willing. by Faith.

Post by Timothy Sutter
not freedom to indulge the flesh with
all of its warrings and conflict,
but freedom to enjoy peace with other people and with God.

Peace with God as he gives us that peace, not with people, Jesus
mentioned that many times. People will hate the believer.

Post by Timothy Sutter
and "no one will make them afraid" [PP xx:yyy-zz]

Those in Christ have no reason to be afraid unless they consider the
Flesh.

Post by Timothy Sutter
conflict resolved...

Not resolved as you might hope, since we are still at war, not with
men, but a spiritual war. 2 Cor 10; James 4;

1Pe 2:11  Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims,
abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 

Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand
against the wiles of the devil. 
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may
be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

it is "the law of sin and death," which is a bondage
to this 'sin nature' and corrupting worldly influences
of decay, to which man has need of gaining his freedom
so that he can walk correctly with his God.

There is no "law of sin and death" as you put it. properly spoken of
it is a "principle", (nomos) not a law as in the Mosaic Law.

right, the principle of sin and death,

from which Paul says we are freed is -not- the law of moses.

Romans 8
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of
the Spirit of life has set you free from the Principle
of sin and death.

principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

it is "the law of sin and death," which is a bondage
to this 'sin nature' and corrupting worldly influences
of decay, to which man has need of gaining his freedom
so that he can walk correctly with his God.

There is no "law of sin and death" as you put it. properly spoken of
it is a "principle", (nomos) not a law as in the Mosaic Law.

right, the principle of sin and death,
from which Paul says we are freed is -not- the law of moses.
Romans 8
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of
the Spirit of life has set you free from the Principle
of sin and death.
principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.

I am not going to go over it again, Paul teaches on being free from
the law written in Stone. and mentioned several other ways as well. It
was something that the Jews found difficult to get over, and Paul had
to admonish Peter on this after the council in Jerusalem. Rather
sternly did he do it as well. It is past time for you to see this.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

it is "the law of sin and death," which is a bondage
to this 'sin nature' and corrupting worldly influences
of decay, to which man has need of gaining his freedom
so that he can walk correctly with his God.

There is no "law of sin and death" as you put it. properly spoken of
it is a "principle", (nomos) not a law as in the Mosaic Law.

right, the principle of sin and death,
from which Paul says we are freed is -not- the law of moses.
Romans 8
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of
the Spirit of life has set you free from the Principle
of sin and death.
principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.

I am not going to go over it again,

you go run along and "meditate" over it and you'll see.

principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.

you're saying it, but then you try to unsay it.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it doesn't take a half an hour of commentary
to explain what is clearly written.
this "another law" is the law of sin and death
which is not a legislation but the demanding
actions of the flesh on the workings of the mind.
it's even directly contrasted with the 'Law of God"

Robert says;

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
It was contrasted with the Mosaic Law. The Law of the mind, not the
spirit. That law empowered no one.

YES, "it", this "another law in my members" =is=

contrasted with the law of moses.

and this warring between the two,

the 'another law in my members' and the "law of his mind;"

is bringing Paul in to captivity to the law of sin and death,
which is -not- the law of his mind, the law of moses,

but is the 'principle' which is in his body[members]

you are almost there, your inner person
seems to see it, that is, your sub-conscious

now, all you have to do is edify your
conscious mind with this new found truth.



and isn't it strange that Paul, not 2 seconds later,

says that he serves the the "law of God"...with his mind;

while serving this other principle with his body.

so, inasmuch as you call the law of moses "the Law of the mind"

we can show romans 7:25 in this way;


Romans 7:25 [original]

25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh
I serve the law of sin.


Romans 7:25 Robert's new version...

25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
with my mind I serve the law of Moses, but with my flesh
I serve the law of sin [and death].


law of sin and death -contrasted- with

law of moses and law of God.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
I am not going to go over it again,

you go run along and "meditate" over it and you'll see.
principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.
you're saying it, but then you try to unsay it.

You saw the various verses speaking directly to it, you saw the law,
parts of it that spoke to death, rites, and rotes from the Mosaic Law.

You saw that Jesus who fulfilled all the Mosaic Law, and was totally
without sin at any moment of his life, died, was sacrificed, for the
sins of the whole of earths peoples that are willing to accept it.
Whether you read it or just blanket disregarded it I have no way of
knowing, but I do know that you saw parts of what I copied from the
Old Covenant, else you could not have snipped them out like you did.
They showed you what you will not see.

God does not lie. His words are truth.

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto
thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Timothy, studying the word is a good thing, if you will allow God to,
he will speak to you through his word in a quiet fashion. He word
says, be still and know my voice. What you are doing, and you seem
sincere about him, is studying the word, deciphering it with your
personal understanding. His words are spirit, and they are life.

If you will allow God into your personal life, and believe on Jesus,
he will rescue you, he will also give you his Holy Spirit to lead you
into all understanding of the things God speaks to us, and more.

What you have already "hidden" in your heart will come to life, and
bring you life and peace. Like a light bulb that clicks and you see
things and wonder, how did I miss that. How do I know? Been there done
that. Using the mind for theology without the wisdom of the spirit
will keep one bound. This is why the Church has failed God in large
measure, as they depended on philosophy, rhetoric, and walked in the
flesh not the spirit. They were powerless as they truly did not know
God, just like the Jews at time that followed tradition, their rites
and rotes, being religious as all get out, but their hearts where no
where near God.

Take a lesson from those people, all. And seek God and have a personal
relationship with him and he will truly be a light unto your feet, as
he lights the path before you.

May you fully come to an understanding of his word as the spirit gave
it.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert
I am not going to go over it again,

you go run along and "meditate" over it and you'll see.
principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.
you're saying it, but then you try to unsay it.

You saw the various verses speaking directly to it, you saw the law,
parts of it that spoke to death, rites, and rotes from the Mosaic Law.

what one needs to grasp is that Sinai is a =marriage=
contract and one that Israel entered in to of its own free will,
This marriage contract is not an agreement to -be- a slave,
nor to bring enslavement upon Israel in particular, or
mankind in general, but an agreement -with- an already
enslaved humanity to -be- at one with YHWH God in Spirit
freedom and peace.

Any temporal transitory nature of Sinai is already
presupposed in the promises made to Abraham.

The death and resurrection of Christ does several things.

one, it destroys the works,,,of whom?

=
1 John 3:8

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from
the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that He might destroy the works of the devil.
=
Hebrews 2:14-15

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood,
He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He
might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
and release those who through fear of death were all their
lifetime subject to bondage.
=

this marriage contract may very well highlight and make
shown clearly -this- bondage to death and the futile
and confused works of the devil and the corruptible
nature of matter, but the contract itself is to be
a coupling -with- the free indeed YHWH God
in the first place.

it's no big secret that the Spirit vies against the
flesh and the flesh desires against the Spirit.
[notice that God reduces the life limit to 120 years]

so, a marriage proposal between a flesh slave and
a free Spirit is already fraught with some difficulty,
but it was already established that greater, more
perfect coupling was to be realized.

in part, it's as if YHWH God is wooing a slave woman whose
'owner/husband' won't let her go to -be- married,
and -this- Lord and master is the father of lies,
who has captured mankind in -its- confused story telling.

so YHWH God has to break -that- attachment, and this
is accomplished by submitting to a death as Lamb
for all of Israel and mankind under YHWH God's own
contract of betrothal.

and the devil is left holding a bunch of dust in its hands
while Israel and mankind is free to marry the risen Christ,
who was the original intended.

Israel and mankind is not freed -from- it's
marriage betrothal to God, but freed from the
fleshly slaveowner who is the slanderous adversary,
who is itself bound up in its own lies,
to realize the intended, which -is- God.

It was always God's purpose that this creation
called 'man' would become the Bride of Christ,
a dwelling place for God in the Spirit.

It was also God's purpose to expose the lie that
HeylEl/Lucifer was dreaming up in its own mind.

there's more to it that this even, because this
is wrapped up in metaphor and analogy and
similitude and God plays more than one part and so,

furthermore...

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
how will you have YHWH "proclaiming Liberty"
while he enslaves Israel to sin?
YHWH did -not- enslave Israel to sin
they were born in the flesh who was already so chained.
etc

Everyone was born with a sin nature, Jew and Gentile.

you're slowly stumbling on to the truth.
yes, this 'sin nature' is in everyone from Adam on.

No, I have been saying this all along, is this the first time you have
paid attention to it?

it is "the law of sin and death," which is a bondage
to this 'sin nature' and corrupting worldly influences
of decay, to which man has need of gaining his freedom
so that he can walk correctly with his God.

There is no "law of sin and death" as you put it. properly spoken of
it is a "principle", (nomos) not a law as in the Mosaic Law.

right, the principle of sin and death,

from which Paul says we are freed is -not- the law of moses.

Romans 8
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of
the Spirit of life has set you free from the Principle
of sin and death.

principle of sin and death which is -not- the law of moses.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the blood of bulls goats and lambs was ineffective
in completing this as it was an outward atonement
for the flesh to keep it clean in the presence
of the ark of the covenant, and the people did not
seem to free their minds on their own while simply
in the presence of the ark.

No man can "free their mind on their own". The blood atoned for the
sins of the people who sacrificed. The High Priest could not enter the
Holy of Holies unless he offered a sin sacrifice for himself and one
for the people. It was accounted to him as righteousness else he would
have been struck dead on the spot.

if God even allows Jesus to be tested in the wilderness
what makes you think that God will not 'test' Israel to
see if they -will- do as they agreeed to do which
is all God asked of them.


YHWH keeps exhorting the Israelites and Judahites to good works


Deuteronomy 30-32

“For they are a nation void of counsel,
Nor is there any understanding in them.
29 Oh, that they were wise, that they understood this,
That they would consider their latter end!


Isaiah 65:1-3

65 “I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;
3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;



YHWH doesn't just say, they -can't- do it,
but realizes that they apparently -won't- do it.

YHWH gave the people their chance.

wouldn't be stretching out hands all day long if
there was absolutely zero chance for a positive action.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
God said; "be holy for i am holy"
not; "you can try to be holy all you like
but i know you can't do it"
yet the -offer- is bone fide.
faith in the blood of Jesus Christ has seemed
to be effective in bringing this inward cleansing
of the sin conciousness to reality, because, for
some reason, God pours out the Spirit on
whomsoever will ask and not on a
chosen and select few.

Jesus died to make this possible for all men. His death retroactively
covered all who walked by faith believing God according to his word,
and his death also cleanses the sins of all men who believe on him
forward to the end of time.
The Holy Spirit is given to all men who have been born again. "If you
have not the spirit of God you are none of his" Romans 8:9

that's nice... i'm one of'em

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
each progression in careful order
yet still, it is not the Law of God to which anyone
is enslaved, but the sin nature and sin consciousness
and the law of sin and death which is at work -in- the flesh.
one does not need to say that faith in the blood of Christ
frees them from the blood of bulls and goats because they
were never enslaved by these.

No one is enslaved to any sin when they are in Christ Jesus
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God.

so once again, according to you, Paul is describing
a previous life in Romans 7.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
people did not need their consciousness cleansed of the law of God
people needed their consciousnesses cleansed of this 'sin nature'
and the Spirit of Christ is able to cleanse
the consciousness of this 'sin nature'

Far, far, more than that my friend, he Gives us a New spirit,
completely regenerated, made the righteousness of God, without sin,
sanctified, redeemed, made as clean as the Holy of Holies in Heaven.
Therein resides the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ within our
spirits and then the spirit is "sealed" and a surety given, Insurance
policy as it were that he would keep us,

well, if that doesn't cleanse the consciousness
of the sin nature, nothing will.

Post by Robert
and never ever leave us like he did in the OT.

uh uh uh, the people broke their word of agreement and walked astray

God never broke God;s word, nor can God lie.

Post by Robert
That part of us is without sin. It is also why, when
your mind chooses to side with the flesh that it grieves the Holy
Spirit that is within us.

wouldn't you like to be a whole person? ONE even?

God is One, and yet, you want to be all split up in pieces.

sort of like jeckyl and hyde.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
the Law of God is =not= this 'sin nature'
from which anyone needs be cleansed.
to say that the law of God -is- this sin nature
from which people must be cleansed, is simply
a slander against God.

Again, you are muddying the waters of understanding.

what don't you understand about that?

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
yes, Israel was bound by agreement to walk in the law
but, had they carried all out correctly,
=freedom= would have been theirs.

No, for the shed blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, had not been made
available to them. They were bound by the law until Christ fulfilled
the law.

the law would have resulted in their freedom.

even James calls this a "perfect law of liberty"

and ; "the royal law according to the Scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself""

being bound by an agreement does not disallow one's freedom,

and the behaviors of teh law would have resulted in
the people's freedom and safety and comfort.

those are the promises of the law.

then you get into the bits about God's slave is teh world's freeman,

==
Romans 6:22

But now having been set free from sin, and having
become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness,
and the end, everlasting life.
==

if they -had- truly made themselves slaves of God

they would have become =free= indeed...

Post by Robert
Now blessings would have been theirs, great blessings to each and
every individual who walked properly in the law. You can read all
about it "Blessings and Curses".

if they'd have walked properly, they would have become free.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
it is their demonstrated slavery to this 'sin nature'
and 'the law of sin and death' which -spoiled-
their opportunity to enjoy _this_ =freedom=
and the same =freedom= applies in Christ

Hardly, a much better freedom is available through Christ, why?
Because the Born Again believer is empowered with the power that
raised Christ from the dead.

but you keep saying that one such can still
fall short and fall away even.

Post by Robert
That was never available to the
individual before his death and resurrection.

you keep saying that a believer that has been cleansed
can still fall short and fall away even.

Post by Robert
His one sacrifice for
all time as opposed to the annual sacrifice for sin under the law.
Under the law the works of men was vital for righteousness, under
Christ our works are as filthy rags, as He has done it all for us who
are willing. by Faith.

and yet, the clean white linens are the righteous deeds of teh saints.

==
Revelation 19:8

And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen,
clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous
acts of the saints.
==

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
not freedom to indulge the flesh with
all of its warrings and conflict,
but freedom to enjoy peace with other people and with God.

Peace with God as he gives us that peace, not with people, Jesus
mentioned that many times. People will hate the believer.

i have no enemies

if someone hates me, that's their problem, not mine.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
and "no one will make them afraid" [PP xx:yyy-zz]

Those in Christ have no reason to be afraid unless they consider the
Flesh.

Zephaniah 3:9

“For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language,
That they all may call on the name of the Lord,
To serve Him with one accord.
10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
My worshipers,
The daughter of My dispersed ones,
Shall bring My offering.
11 In that day you shall not be shamed for any of your deeds
In which you transgress against Me;
For then I will take away from your midst
Those who rejoice in your pride,
And you shall no longer be haughty
In My holy mountain.
12 I will leave in your midst
A meek and humble people,
And they shall trust in the name of the Lord.
13 The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness
And speak no lies,
Nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;
For they shall feed their flocks and lie down,
And no one shall make them afraid.”




Malachi 2
Then you shall know that I have sent this commandment to you,
That My covenant with Levi may continue,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
5 “My covenant was with him, one of life and peace,
And I gave them to him that he might fear Me;
So he feared Me
And was reverent before My name.
6 The law of truth[a] was in his mouth,
And injustice was not found on his lips.
He walked with Me in peace and equity,
And turned many away from iniquity.

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
conflict resolved...

Not resolved as you might hope, since we are still at war, not with
men, but a spiritual war. 2 Cor 10; James 4;

Jesus does all my light work.

just as YHWH did Israel's light work.


Deuteronomy 1:30

The Lord your God, who goes before you, He will fight for you,
according to all He did for you in Egypt before your eyes,

2 Chronicles 32:8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with
us is the Lord our God, to help us and to fight our battles.”
And the people were strengthened by the words of Hezekiah
king of Judah.

Revelation 19:15

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He
should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them
with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of
the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Post by Robert
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims,
abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

1 Thessalonians 4:11-13

11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life,
to mind your own business, and to work with your
own hands, as we commanded you, 12 that you may
walk properly toward those who are outside,
and that you may lack nothing.

Post by Robert
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand
against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may
be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

James 1:4
But let patience have its perfect work,
that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

[Timothy Sutter]

Paul says Hagar and Sarah are two covenants,
and that one is -bound- and one is -free-,

but Hagar is -Sarai's- handmaid and bears
children for Abraham at -Sarai's- request,

because Sarai is unable to bear
children of her own, and then,
all of a sudden, Sarah bears
children of her own.

it's almost as if, the "princess"
is under the guidance of an overseer
until such time as she becomes a "queen"

Sarai = princess
Sarah = queen

and then you get all that Solomon
"don't stir up love before its time" routine.

so anyway, if Sarah is the covenant of promise

and Hagar is the covenant of contract law

the promise bears children by contract law
until such time as the promise is fulfilled.

but also, in actual practice,

the children under contract are already born
and so, the contract is used as a temporary
governing authority until such time as

the children are -reborn- into the promise.

i know i know, the children of the -bound-
woman will never be apportioned along with
the children of the free woman.

but; "flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God"

so, not only do Hagar and Sarah represent
two covenants, but also, two births,

the first birth is unto the temporary dwellings
in the flesh and the second birth is unto the
eternal dwellings in the Spirit.

why can't Sarai bear
children of her own
immediately?

once again, it is God's will and not
man's desires that bring this work
to completion.

we shouldn't suggest that Hagar
is a slavery, but a -binding-
contractual relationship.

and we do not suggest that Sarah is free
-from- the contract, or free -in spite of-
the contract, but free in fulfillment
of the contract.

the contract that was entered in to by promise.

where, when God says;

"i promise to do this"

God -is- bound by oath.

that is, God's promise -is-
a binding contract and
cannot be broken.

the promise -is- the contract.

subsequent stipulations bring the
temporary to look toward the eternal
for ultimate salvation by grace.

and God leaves Abraham with Laughter.

get it? "Isaac..-->..laughter"?

..ha ha...oh nevermind.


anyway,
see yourself as there,
and you will be there.

see yourself in chains, and you
can never understand freedom.

see yourself as bound to God,
and Love is yours.

if you were born under contract,
seek to fulfill it,

if you were not born under contract,
seek first the Kingdom of God, and
and God will bless you as a Holy Temple.

no hidden sanity clauses

just a promise of Love

fulfilled in Christ.


=====

[Timothy Sutter]

==
Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==


there had to have been a "remnant",
a slender thread, escorted under guard,
to bring us to Mary, and
give us Jesus, a Lamb without blemish.

sifted and pure

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
there had to have been a "remnant",
a slender thread, escorted under guard,
to bring us to Mary, and
give us Jesus, a Lamb without blemish.
sifted and pure

Side note here.

Had God not set aside a people unto him, with the Laws that magnified
sin, then the people after the flood would have been like those before
the flood, and there might not have been a virgin left to conceive the
child Jesus.

[Timothy Sutter]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
there had to have been a "remnant",
a slender thread, escorted under guard,
to bring us to Mary, and
give us Jesus, a Lamb without blemish.
sifted and pure

Had God not set aside a people unto him, with the Laws that
magnified sin, then the people after the flood would have
been like those before the flood,

the world before Noah had no magnifying glass
in their hand but it seems apparent that a horribly
corrupted and misled world developed all by itself.

putting a magnifying glass in one's hand does not
make one a slave to the magnifying glass.

one should not be found suggesting,

"well, if i close my eyes, i'll be free from that
bloody magnifying glass and can do as i please"

failing to realize that "doing as you pleased"
got you into to trouble in the first place.


=
2 Corinthians 7

7 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse
ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
=


an afterthought

=
1 Corinthians 7:17-19

But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has
called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all
the churches. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let
him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while
uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision
is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping
the commandments of God is what matters.
==

one may note, that Paul does not suggest that those
who are circumcised seek to change that and leave
that and get out of that.

[Robert]

Post by Timothy Sutter

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law,
kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
==
there had to have been a "remnant",
a slender thread, escorted under guard,
to bring us to Mary, and
give us Jesus, a Lamb without blemish.
sifted and pure

Had God not set aside a people unto him, with the Laws that
magnified sin, then the people after the flood would have
been like those before the flood,

the world before Noah had no magnifying glass
in their hand but it seems apparent that a horribly
corrupted and misled world developed all by itself.

That is what I said.

Post by Timothy Sutter
putting a magnifying glass in one's hand does not
make one a slave to the magnifying glass.

Are you unaware of the law then?
Whatever one is focused on that be what they are. Slaves to their
whims or their desires or their wants.

Post by Timothy Sutter
one should not be found suggesting,
"well, if i close my eyes, i'll be free from that
bloody magnifying glass and can do as i please"
failing to realize that "doing as you pleased"
got you into to trouble in the first place.

No one was suggesting that, why are you doing it?

Post by Timothy Sutter
=
2 Corinthians 7
7 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse
ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
=
an afterthought
=
1 Corinthians 7:17-19
But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has
called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all
the churches. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let
him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while
uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision
is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping
the commandments of God is what matters.
==
one may note, that Paul does not suggest that those
who are circumcised seek to change that and leave
that and get out of that.

There was circumcision before the law. Also various types of
circumcision. There is more here than meets your eye.

[Timothy Sutter]

i still think there's not enough emphasis placed
on the difference between "shagagah" and "ruwm"

where "shagagah" is spoken of concerning ignorance
or unintentional trespass and "ruwm" is spoken of
concerning presumptuous or -grossly- intentional
trespass with an eye towards raising YHWH
to outright scorn. (Numbers 15)

and i mean, it seems to me, that this "ruwm" has
got to be really really egregious before -anyone-
should even think about picking up rocks
to buss' people upside the head.

=because= we have a prophet of YHWH, namely Ezekiel
suggesting that an outright "wicked" individual, who
has already carried out death penalty infractions,
=can= turn from his "wicked" way and have his 'sins'
remembered no more.


==
Exodus 19:7-9

So Moses came and called for
the elders of the people, and laid
before them all these words which
YehFeh commanded him. Then all
the people answered together and said,
"All that YehFeh has spoken we will do."
So Moses brought back the words of the
people to YehFeh. And YehFeh said
to Moses, "Behold, I come to you in the
thick cloud, that the people may hear
when I speak with you, and believe
you forever." So Moses told the words
of the people to YehFeh.
==


they all agree to it...
and -then-, if transgression
is unintentional /or/ "shagagah"

==

Numbers 15:22-31

"'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands
YHWH gave Moses- any of YHWH's commands to you through him, from
the day YHWH gave them and continuing through the generations to come-
and if this is done unintentionally without the community being
aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull
for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to YHWH, along with its
prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat
for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole
Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not
intentional and they have brought to YHWH for their wrong an
offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite
community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven,
because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.

"'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring
a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to
make atonement before YHWH for the one who erred by sinning
unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him,
he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone
who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite
or an alien.


"'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born (ruwm)
or alien, blasphemes YHWH, and that person must be
cut off from his people. Because he has despised
YHWH's word and broken his commands, that person must
surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.' "


===
Ezekiel 18:1-30

The word of YHWH came to me:
"What do you people mean by quoting
this proverb about the land of Israel:

"'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign YHWH,
you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
For every living soul belongs to me, the father
as well as the son both alike belong to me.
The soul who sins is the one who will die."

"Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

<chorus>
He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign YehFeh.
</chorus>

<...>

"Suppose he has a violent son, who
sheds blood or does any of these
other things (though the father
has done none of them):

<...11-13 chorus...>

Will such a man live? He will not!
Because he has done all these detestable
things, he will surely be put to death
and his blood will be on his own head.


"But suppose this son has a son who
sees all the sins his father commits,
and though he sees them, he does not
do such things:

<...15-17 chorus...>

He will not die for his father's sin;
he will surely live. But his father
will die for his own sin, because he
practiced extortion, robbed his brother
and did what was wrong among his people.



"Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share
the guilt of his father?' Since the son
has done what is just and right and has
been careful to keep all my decrees,
he will surely live.

The soul who sins is the one who will die.
The son will not share the guilt of the father,
nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous man will be
credited to him, and the wickedness
of the wicked will be charged against him.


<<<<now the big key element>>>>


"But if a wicked man turns away from all
the sins he has committed and keeps all
my decrees and does what is just and right,
he will surely live; he will not die.

None of the offenses he has committed
will be remembered against him. Because
of the righteous things he has done,
he will live.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?
declares the Sovereign YHWH. Rather, am I not
pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
==



to notice first, the people have had
the Law read to them, and they all
agree to carry it out, [exodus 19:7-9]

and then we see a stipulation

[Numbers 15:22-31] also see Leviticus 4

that maintains that an individual or a crowd
can transgress this law "unintentionally"
or by 'accident' and be forgiven,
and not stoned.

shagagah(in ignorance) as opposed to ruwm(presumtuously)

and we see that this is so, because in Ezekiel 18
YHWH says in no uncertain terms that a 'wicked' man,
-can- 'turn from his wickedness' and be forgiven and
his sins remembered no more.

and one of the 'sins' enumerated -is-
a death penalty sin, "adultery"

now, obviously, if a man, who is an adulterer,
-can- turn from his ways and 'see the light'
as it were, then he -obviously- was -not-
to -be- stoned to death on first report

or else he could -never- possibly turn
from his 'wickedness' and be forgiven,

and this, -after- having had the Law
read to him and agreeing to abide in it.

meaning, it is -possible- that a person
could have the Law read to him, and he agree
to abide in it, and -still- not understand it,
and commit a violation 'unintentionally'
or 'by accident' and be 'forgiven'


""Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?
declares the Sovereign YHWH. Rather, am I not
pleased when they turn from their ways and live?""

===
Ezekiel 18:25-32

Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not just."
Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is
it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous
man turns away from his righteousness and commits
injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice which
he has committed he shall die. Again, when a wicked
man turns away from the wickedness he has committed
and does what is lawful and right, he shall save
his life. Because he considered and turned away
from all the transgressions which he had committed,
he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not just."
O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your
ways that are not just? "Therefore I will judge you,
O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,
says the Lord YHWH. Repent and turn from all your
transgressions, lest injustice be your ruin.

Cast away from you all the transgressions which
you have committed against me, and get yourselves
a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die,
O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure
in the death of any one, says the Lord God;
so turn, and live."
===


now, how can Ezekiel be saying to turn around
to a corpse who has been put to death for
a single infraction?

there -must- be more to this than just;

"stub your toe get a brick upside the head"





and then, you see Jesus saying this;


===
John 9:40-41

Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him
heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would
have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’
Therefore your sin remains.
===

see, Jesus suggests, -as does- the Law

that you can be 'blind' and therefore,
not fully accountable for your actions
a diminished capacity defence fo adults


but anyway, these other characters say that they =see=
and yet, -their- sin remains

and -then- you start wondering
if their sin is "intentional"

for which, forgiveness may not be so easy
inasmuch as they have held YHWH up to scorn.


the entire enterprise goes to great lengths
to elicit the proper response which is to turn
correctly towards God and see Holiness and be blameless.


This Law is -already- a "Grace"

and -not- 'license' as we see
that the children of Israel

become sickened when they seem
to -treat- it as a license.


much the same way as "many become sick"
when they take the communion without
having properly inspected themselves...


it's just that people fail to -see- It, Grace,

in the Law because of the 'veil' worn by Moses.

albeit, we recognize that the blood of bulls
and goats can never cleanse the conscience
of unrighteousness in the manner which
Christ's own Holy Wine, can.

but, also, that the blood of bulls and goats
was a shadow anda temporary entitlement for
the peculiar people of Israel, and that, at least,


apparently, God has a Way and an Image

that is not to be trifled with....

but someone can read to you and you can
agree to its genuine Good and blameless holiness
and still, fall short of a thorough understanding
and ...transgress YHWH's imperative.

you wonder who -would- transgress
on purpose with full knowledge...
but apparently, it's possible...

and then, getting busted up side
the head is a merciful end,

because they'd be in conflict with Life itself.


it definitely deserves
more than just a casual glance...








John 9:40-41
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him
heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would
have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’
Therefore your sin remains.



Matthew 12:7
But if you had known what this means,
‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’
you would not have condemned the guiltless.



Hosea 6


1 Come, and let us return to YHWH;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of YHWH.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.


4 “O Ephraim, what shall I do to you?
O Judah, what shall I do to you?
For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud,
And like the early dew it goes away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
I have slain them by the words of My mouth;
And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

7 “But like men they transgressed the covenant;
There they dealt treacherously with Me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers
And defiled with blood.
9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man,
So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem;
Surely they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel:
There is the harlotry of Ephraim;
Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you,
When I return the captives of My people.



===
Isaiah 1

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz,
which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem
in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz,
and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

<...2-10...>

“To what purpose is the multitude
of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says YHWH.

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight
in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.
“When you come to appear before Me, Who has
required this from your hand,
To trample My courts? Bring no more
futile sacrifices; Incense is
an abomination to Me.
===

[Timothy Sutter]

===
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
=
Jeremiah 4:22
"My people are fools; they do not know me.
They are senseless children; they have no
understanding. They are skilled in doing
evil; they know not how to do good."
=
Malachi 2:17
You have wearied YHWH with your words.
"How have we wearied him?" you ask. By saying,
"All who do evil are good in the eyes of YHWH,
and he is pleased with them" or
"Where is the God of justice?"
=
Psalm 35:12
They repay me evil for good
and leave my soul forlorn.
===

one little thing, see, humans tend towards
this inabillity to distinguish good from bad
and even call bad good and good bad,

so, when God says that God will pay you
your wages for behaving bad, and -you- see
this -as- a 'bad' thing, because for you,
good is getting what you want and bad is
not getting what you want, and you don't
want to get paid your wages for behaving 'badly',
then -you'd- be sensing that God is doing -bad-
things to you by paying you your wages, and yet,
for God, God is only doing the very good thing
of paying your wages for your behaviuors and
is not -doing- evil to you nor anyone else.

so, God can say to you,

"there is no -other- who is doing these things
no, -i- bring good, and i, also, bring your wages
upon your head which -you- may see as 'evil'"

and yet, from the persepective of God, it is only good.

so, we should never suggest that God -does- evil
when God is -only- paying you your wages and for
God, this is -only- good.

God just wants you to know, that you shouldn't
be looking for some -other-, who is bringing
you your wages and you don't like it,

so, you can't say, "isn't God in our misdst,
why are these bad things happening to us?"

these things which -you- think are 'bad'

are, oftentimes -just- God brining you your
just rewards and when you get paid yur wages,

that's just you getting what you've got coming.

only -good- from God's viewpoint.

but, then, there is also those get their recompense
right away, on a continuous basis and those for whom
a large debt may be accruing and may just fall on
their heads all at once.

so, you -want- to be among those who get their
deeds returned to their heads right away and so,
you can make corrections to your deeds

because if a ton of bricks falls on your head
all at once, you may get crushed under the weight,
and -still- this is only a good God doing what is
perfectly good on your behalf.

and not a God who is -doing-
evil to you nor anyone else.

if someone -tells- you;

"pineapples are good"

do you -know- that pineapples are good?

if soemone -tells- you;

theft is bad,

do you -know- that theft is bad?

if it is impossible that God could ever steal
anything from anyone simply because all things
are God's, then you cannot rightly say that
God -knows- theft, and therefore -knows- an evil.

what God _does_ -know- is that actions taken
-not- out of 'love' are incorrect actions

which cannot be taken to mean that
God -knows- incorrect action, because
God cannot -do- incorrect action.

which makes Jesus that special exemplar
who saw things exactly as you see them,

and yet, never once acted -not-
out of 'faith' and 'love'

Jesus saw hunger, and humbled
himself on the word of God alone.

Jesus did -not- say;
"let's go steal those people's
bread because i'm hungry"

in fact, Jesus, by his great faith, -fed-
a multitude with a few small fishes and loaves.

God -is- -only- Good.

etc etc etc...








=
Deuteronomy 8:5
You should know in your heart that as
a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastens you.
=
Hebrews 12:5
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to
you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening
of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
=
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
=
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful;
nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness
to those who have been trained by it.
=
Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.
Therefore be zealous and repent.
=




when God allows calamity to strike a people
for their -own- actions which are contrary to Life

when God allows calamity to strike a people
for their -own- actions which are contrary to Life
God still loves and has the best intentions

but, the people who feel calamity may
very well think that such actions are 'evil'

inasmuch as "good" for them is them getting what they want
and "bad" for them is them not getting what they want,


and so, they, themselves, carry out actions,
such as enslaving another people

which, may bring them what they want

but, which they would certainly
detest if it was done -to- them,


and so, "good" and "evil" become the selfsame action,

the act of enslaving is "good" when they do it

and "evil" when it is doen -to- them.



this is the very heart of

"do unto others as you would
have them do unto you"

and so, when God allows calamity,
and the people feel that
the calamity is "bad"


they may do well to understand that it was God
who allowed the recompense for -their- own actions.


for God is Light and in God
there is no darkness at all


-not- an 'evil' God


-that- is a matter of =who= is 'perceiving' the actions...





God still loves and has the best intentions

but, the people who feel calamity may
very well think that such actions are 'evil'

inasmuch as "good" for them is them getting what they want
and "bad" for them is them not getting what they want,

and so, they, themselves, carry out actions,
such as enslaving another people

which, may bring them what they want
but, which they would certainly
detest if it was done -to- them,

and so, "good" and "evil" become the selfsame action,
the act of enslaving is "good" when they do it
and "evil" when it is doen -to- them.

this is the very heart of

"do unto others as you would
have them do unto you"

and so, when God allows calamity,
and the people feel that
the calamity is "bad"

they may do well to understand that it was God
who allowed the recompense for -their- own actions.

for God is Light and in God
there is no darkness at all

-not- an 'evil' God

-that- is a matter of =who= is 'perceiving' the actions...

there is no "other" God.

[Timothy Sutter]

Paul is clearly speaking about Israel
in these passages of Romans and he clearly indicates
that all of Israel will be saved after a hardening
done for the benefit of the 'gentile nations'

when Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau,
he is likening it to him and his Judean brothers,
where he is explaining that those brothers of his
that have turned away from the good news, are
further hardened on account of the nations
or gentiles.


first here;

==
Romans 9

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one
and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet,
before the twins were born or had done anything
good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election
might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she
was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just
as it is written: "Jacob loved, and Esau hated."

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust?
Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
==

after a long bit of explaining, Paul says this;

==
Romans 11
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers,
so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a
hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has
come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies
on your account; but as far as election is concerned,
they are loved on account of the patriarchs,


29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just
as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now
received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so
they too have now become disobedient in order that they
too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy
to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience
so that he may have mercy on them all.
==

see, Paul does not even imply that the Judean
brothers are forever damned and removed from Christ,

quite the contrary, he says;

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies
on your account; but as far as election is concerned,
they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"


see, he says that they are enemies against the
good news for the purpose of the grafting in of
the wild olive nations, [chapter 10 and 11],

but that they are still beloved
because of the patriarchs.

and then there are bits about their fullness
being brought back in after the fullness of
the nations is realized.

so, none of this is to be considered as if
there is any sort of eternal hatred against
those hardened against the gospel message
for a time.

and we still have to deal with the bits
about the carnal man and the spiritual man;

Esau is the man of the dirt, he is the
man of flesh, God has simply taken him
to reckon -as- the man of flesh, while
Jacob is made to wrestle with a spirit.


just to get the idea of the spirit/flesh
dichotomy that is played out in the genesis
bits, first, just compare with this statement
made about Isaac and Ishmael;

==
Galatians 4:29
But, as he who was born according to the flesh
then persecuted him who was born according
to the Spirit, even so it is now.
==

see, it draws a distinction between two
-flesh- people as signatories of a deeper
interplay that is going on, concerning
a man of flesh and a man of spirit.

now;

==
Romans 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh
set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who live according to the Spirit,
the things of the Spirit.
==

see, Esau had set his mind upon the
things of the flesh, and sold his
birthright for a bowl of porridge.
genesis 27.

and there is a natural striving
of sorts between the Spirit and
the flesh;

==
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh strives against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh; and
these are contrary to one another, so
that you do not do the things
that you wish.
==


so it is not so much that God -hates- Esau
as that the Spirit strives against the flesh
and the flesh strives against the Spirit, all
without any -malice- fom God.

and, now, look at how Esau is actually treated.

Jacob returns to Esau in fear thinking
that Esau would be mad at him for
the birthright 'trick' [gen 27]

but we see that Esau is very happy and
well fixed and is not in need of anything
and welcomes Jacob with open arms.

and says this;

==
Genesis 33:9
then said Esau:
"I have an abundance, my brother, keep what you have"
==

this after Jacob is ready to set many things before
Esau and give it to Esau as a peace offering.

Esau was blessed with an abundance even
after he sold his birthright to Jacob for
a bowl of posrridge.

so, as flesh man, Esau is 'vulgar'

but God blesses him anyway.

and we see how God makes it possible for these
flesh people to draw near to God while yet
-in- the flesh.

in brief,

the carnal mind of man will not
last through incineration

and God will not -harbor- anything
at all about a pile of ashes.

it's really that simple.

so, while God may strive with the carnal mind
of man, for a time, God will not harbor any
detestation for a pile of ashes.

"dust you are and to dust you shall return"


etc.etc.etc.


===
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
=
Jeremiah 4:22
"My people are fools; they do not know me.
They are senseless children; they have no
understanding. They are skilled in doing
evil; they know not how to do good."
=
Malachi 2:17
You have wearied YHWH with your words.
"How have we wearied him?" you ask. By saying,
"All who do evil are good in the eyes of YHWH,
and he is pleased with them" or
"Where is the God of justice?"
=
Psalm 35:12
They repay me evil for good
and leave my soul forlorn.
===

one little thing, see, humans tend towards
this inabillity to distinguish good from bad
and even call bad good and good bad,

so, when God says that God will pay you
your wages for behaving bad, and -you- see
this -as- a 'bad' thing, because for you,
good is getting what you want and bad is
not getting what you want, and you don't
want to get paid your wages for behaving 'badly',
then -you'd- be sensing that God is doing -bad-
things to you by paying you your wages, and yet,
for God, God is only doing the very good thing
of paying your wages for your behaviuors and
is not -doing- evil to you nor anyone else.

so, God can say to you,

"there is no -other- who is doing these things
no, -i- bring good, and i, also, bring your wages
upon your head which -you- may see as 'evil'"

and yet, from the persepective of God, it is only good.

so, we should never suggest that God -does- evil
when God is -only- paying you your wages and for
God, this is -only- good.

God just wants you to know, that you shouldn't
be looking for some -other-, who is bringing
you your wages and you don't like it,

so, you can't say, "isn't God in our misdst,
why are these bad things happening to us?"

these things which -you- think are 'bad'

are, oftentimes -just- God brining you your
just rewards and when you get paid yur wages,

that's just you getting what you've got coming.

only -good- from God's viewpoint.

but, then, there is also those get their recompense
right away, on a continuous basis and those for whom
a large debt may be accruing and may just fall on
their heads all at once.

so, you -want- to be among those who get their
deeds returned to their heads right away and so,
you can make corrections to your deeds

because if a ton of bricks falls on your head
all at once, you may get crushed under the weight,
and -still- this is only a good God doing what is
perfectly good on your behalf.

and not a God who is -doing-
evil to you nor anyone else.

if someone -tells- you;

"pineapples are good"

do you -know- that pineapples are good?

if soemone -tells- you;

theft is bad,

do you -know- that theft is bad?

if it is impossible that God could ever steal
anything from anyone simply because all things
are God's, then you cannot rightly say that
God -knows- theft, and therefore -knows- an evil.

what God _does_ -know- is that actions taken
-not- out of 'love' are incorrect actions

which cannot be taken to mean that
God -knows- incorrect action, because
God cannot -do- incorrect action.

which makes Jesus that special exemplar
who saw things exactly as you see them,

and yet, never once acted -not-
out of 'faith' and 'love'

Jesus saw hunger, and humbled
himself on the word of God alone.

Jesus did -not- say;
"let's go steal those people's
bread because i'm hungry"

in fact, Jesus, by his great faith, -fed-
a multitude with a few small fishes and loaves.

God -is- -only- Good.



just, what you don't want
to find yourself saying
is this;

"God's creation is faulty, it's all
God's fault and i'm not responsible
for being bogus"

because simply saying this is you,
stripping yourself of being
a conscious persona.

by pushing off 'blame' onto God,
you reject your own chances of
being a person all your own.

you -want- to take responsibility
for the way you are and become,

-this- is the very first step in your
becoming an individual concious persona.

"i did it"

if you -won't- say "i did it"
when you walk into troubles,

you deny your self the -right-
to turn and say "i did it" when
you appear to have something 'good'

and you reduce your self to an empty sock puppet.

God's creation is just fine and good.

when you realize that you
fall short of God's Holiness,

admit this,

and only then, will God lead you
into that perfectable state,
standing Holy and Blameless,
before God, in righteous agreement,
as conscious persona.

what you are trying to avoid is having
-matter- lead 'you' into a hole in the ground.

that's not 'human nature' that's
a forced march into oblivion.

anyway, that's one problem behind all of this;


the earth was abandoned and desolate
from the time of its inception, bit.

no, the earth was -not- God

this is true.

but the earth was to bring forth

a new creature in God's image

who would stand before God

as holy and blameless.

-be- that.

-take- this cup.

it is to be yours.

God -is- -only- Good.

king james lexicon is clean

king james translation is booby-trapped

it's that simple.



it really is at the heart of the matter;

Eve, the woman in the garden, guesses.

later we may be able to see how the serpent
is also guessing and doesn't know for sure,
but just for right now, look at Eve.

she seems to realize that there is something
that she does not know or possess as knowledge.

she says;

"to make one wise"

at the prodding of the 'Nachash',
-divining- serpent, she looks at
the tree and says that eating
its fruit is suitable;

"to make one wise"

obviously, she realizes that she is not 'wise'
but she guesses that this divining serpent
is telling her the truth and that whoever
told her not to eat was not telling
her the whole story.

but after she eats, when YHWH turns
to her and asks why she ate,

she doesn't say;

"i'm wise now"

she says;

"the Nachash serpent tricked me"

she doesn't say;

"i made the right choice"

she says;

"the serpent tricked me"

based on what available
information she had,
she guessed,

and then she regretted.

[Robert]

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 07:46:53 -0400, Timothy Sutter <***@lycos.com>
wrote:

<snip>

Post by Timothy Sutter
but that they are still beloved
because of the patriarchs.
and then there are bits about their fullness
being brought back in after the fullness of
the nations is realized.
so, none of this is to be considered as if
there is any sort of eternal hatred against
those hardened against the gospel message
for a time.
and we still have to deal with the bits
about the carnal man and the spiritual man;
Esau is the man of the dirt, he is the
man of flesh, God has simply taken him
to reckon -as- the man of flesh, while
Jacob is made to wrestle with a spirit.

Jacob wrestled because he was determined to gain a blessing.

Post by Timothy Sutter
just to get the idea of the spirit/flesh
dichotomy that is played out in the genesis
bits, first, just compare with this statement
made about Isaac and Ishmael;
==
Galatians 4:29
But, as he who was born according to the flesh
then persecuted him who was born according
to the Spirit, even so it is now.

The Spirit of God has been ever present. this speaks to God who
preordained this thing, not to the spirit of man.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
see, it draws a distinction between two
-flesh- people as signatories of a deeper
interplay that is going on, concerning
a man of flesh and a man of spirit.

Not quite. A man of the flesh, Esau and his brother who was ordained
of God to do as he preordained,.

Post by Timothy Sutter
now;
==
Romans 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh
set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who live according to the Spirit,
the things of the Spirit.

If we walk in a born again spirit. Isaac had no such advantage.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
see, Esau had set his mind upon the
things of the flesh, and sold his
birthright for a bowl of porridge.
genesis 27.
and there is a natural striving
of sorts between the Spirit and
the flesh;
==
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh strives against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh; and
these are contrary to one another, so
that you do not do the things
that you wish.

This for sure which is why a born again believer must overcome the
lust in his flesh, redeeming his days.

Post by Timothy Sutter
==
so it is not so much that God -hates- Esau
as that the Spirit strives against the flesh
and the flesh strives against the Spirit, all
without any -malice- fom God.

You appear to me mixing up the Spirit of God and the spirit of man.

Post by Timothy Sutter
and, now, look at how Esau is actually treated.
Jacob returns to Esau in fear thinking
that Esau would be mad at him for
the birthright 'trick' [gen 27]
but we see that Esau is very happy and
well fixed and is not in need of anything
and welcomes Jacob with open arms.
and says this;
==
Genesis 33:9
"I have an abundance, my brother, keep what you have"
==
this after Jacob is ready to set many things before
Esau and give it to Esau as a peace offering.
Esau was blessed with an abundance even
after he sold his birthright to Jacob for
a bowl of posrridge.
so, as flesh man, Esau is 'vulgar'
but God blesses him anyway.
and we see how God makes it possible for these
flesh people to draw near to God while yet
-in- the flesh.
in brief,
the carnal mind of man will not
last through incineration
and God will not -harbor- anything
at all about a pile of ashes.
it's really that simple.
so, while God may strive with the carnal mind
of man, for a time, God will not harbor any
detestation for a pile of ashes.

In Christ as a reborn man our minds are renewed because we are now new
creatures in Christ Jesus. We grieve the Holy Spirit that is within us
when we err. It is Christ within that motivates us and gives us the
will and the ability to do.

[Madhu]

Post by Robert
If we walk in a born again spirit. Isaac had no such advantage.

Isaac had faith (Heb. 11:17-20). The faith was reckoned for
righteousness, it accounts for the spirit of God in man, for faith is in
the man's spirit.

Post by Robert

but we see that Esau is very happy and well fixed and is not in need
of anything and welcomes Jacob with open arms. and says this;
Genesis 33:9 then said Esau: "I have an abundance, my brother, keep
what you have"
this after Jacob is ready to set many things before Esau and give it
to Esau as a peace offering. Esau was blessed with an abundance even
after he sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of posrridge. so, as
flesh man, Esau is 'vulgar' but God blesses him anyway.
and we see how God makes it possible for these flesh people to draw
near to God while yet -in- the flesh.

Prosperity and worldly abundance do not imply that Esau was blessed in
the same way that Jacob was blessed - Jacob was elected to inherit the
millennial life, (as with Isaac in Hebrews above). The wicked prosper
but this is no reflection on the blessings of God. Psalms, Job and
writings have an abundance of verses which grapple with this problem.

(Romans 9:22-23) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to
make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make
known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he
had afore prepared unto glory,

(I'm not saying Esau is wicked, Esau was blessed on earth)

Post by Robert

in brief, the carnal mind of man will not last through incineration
and God will not -harbor- anything at all about a pile of ashes.

That is just wrong.

(Isaiah 66:24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the
carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their
worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and
they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(Malachi 4:2-3) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of
righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go
forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread
down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your
feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The enemies of God are in for everlasting shame, not annihilation.

[duke]

Post by Robert

Post by Timothy Sutter
so, while God may strive with the carnal mind
of man, for a time, God will not harbor any
detestation for a pile of ashes.

In Christ as a reborn man our minds are renewed because we are now new
creatures in Christ Jesus.

but you are the same old trash is you refuse to follow Jesus.

Post by Robert
We grieve the Holy Spirit that is within us
when we err.

Why grieve when you refuse to listen.

Post by Robert
It is Christ within that motivates us and gives us the
will and the ability to do.

You got it backwards, bro. Jesus sent the holy Spirit into our hearts to listen
and to follow him.

You just don't get it: Jesus said "follow me". If you don't, it's because you
don't want to. You prefer the dark side.

the dukester, American-American


*****
The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did in
the OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.
*****